Coming to Pa.: Drug tests for welfare checks?
June 20th, 2007 12:10 pm · 53 comments
Four years ago, in 2003, a federal appeals court ruled that Michigan’s sweeping drug-testing program for welfare recipients was unconstitutional. Nonetheless, a group of about six dozen Pennsylvania lawmakers — including five Republicans from Lancaster County — have signed on to a new House bill that would require people who want public assistance benefits to pass a drug test and be fingerprinted — pretty much the same thing Michigan’s now-struck-down law did. Rep. Steven W. Capelli, a Republican from Williamsport, unveiled the legislation earlier this month. The Sun-Gazette and Pittsburgh Tribune-Review wrote about it.
The local lawmakers behind it are Reps. John Bear, Bryan Cutler, Gordon Denlinger, David Hickernell and Katie True.
The American Civil Liberties Union, which successfully sued to stop the Michigan program, keeps track of such efforts, and found:
- New York and Maryland originally intended to require random drug testing for those receiving welfare. They discarded their drug testing plans after finding that a program of questionnaires is more cost-effective.
- Louisiana passed a law in 1997 requiring drug testing for welfare recipients. However, a task force set up to implement the law decided that more limited drug testing of individuals identified by a questionnaire is more cost-effective than mandatory drug testing.
- Certain counties in Oregon experimented with drug testing on some welfare recipients. The process was halted when it was found that drug testing was less effective in identifying drug abuse than through less invasive methods.
- Alabama decided against drug testing because it found that focusing on job training programs was a more effective method of moving individuals off of welfare.
- Iowa decided against drug testing welfare recipients since it could not include a test for alcohol abuse, which is more prevalent than illicit drug abuse. The state found other methods to be more cost-effective.
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There are currently 53 comments on this blog postView Topic | Comment on this blogusedmeat 6/20/07 12:46 PM | I'm all for it. As long as we institute random drug screens for all members of the General Assembly while we are at it. Lets face it, some of the legeslation out of Harrisburg looks like it was crafted while under the influence of drugs.
I would love it if Reps. John Bear, Bryan Cutler, Gordon Denlinger, David Hickernell and Katie True have to pee in a cup in front of a matron or guard, wouldn't you?
Why not write them and tell them this is such a swell idea that members of the legislature should set an example and go first. After all they should be like Caesars wife, above suspicition.
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oh geez 6/20/07 1:14 PM | people can get randomly drug tested at their place of employment, why not people on welfare? If they can afford drugs, then let them work and pay for it themselves. |
Faulkner 6/20/07 1:21 PM | Sounds good to me. |
Shawn 6/20/07 1:22 PM | QUOTE(oh geez @ Jun 20 2007, 01:14 PM) [snapback]298050[/snapback] people can get randomly drug tested at their place of employment, why not people on welfare? If they can afford drugs, then let them work and pay for it themselves.
I'm all for it too. In fact that receives government money should get the pleasure of being tested for drugs. Including Social Security.
Later...Shawn
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Subsonix 6/20/07 1:24 PM | It's about time. |
Starzs 6/20/07 3:49 PM | Good idea except for the fact that alot of drugs are not detected by a simple blood test and I doubt they want to spend a lot of money on extra test. |
justplainjoe 6/20/07 3:55 PM | QUOTE(usedmeat @ Jun 20 2007, 12:46 PM) [snapback]298042[/snapback] I'm all for it. As long as we institute random drug screens for all members of the General Assembly while we are at it. Lets face it, some of the legeslation out of Harrisburg looks like it was crafted while under the influence of drugs. I would love it if Reps. John Bear, Bryan Cutler, Gordon Denlinger, David Hickernell and Katie True have to pee in a cup in front of a matron or guard, wouldn't you? Why not write them and tell them this is such a swell idea that members of the legislature should set an example and go first. After all they should be like Caesars wife, above suspicition.
good idea..these do nothings live off the public trough make them take a drug test.
oh and by the way lets give them shitty hmo's and see how those pricks like it.
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Alyssarah1 6/20/07 4:04 PM | I had to have a chunk of my hair cut out for testing in order to work. Anyone paid NOT to work should have to do the same. |
bigstew 6/20/07 4:05 PM | I have to agree with everyone but shawn. I don't think the government should be able to withhold money from someone who spent their working lives paying into just because of a urine test. |
Shawn 6/20/07 4:07 PM | QUOTE(bigstew @ Jun 20 2007, 04:05 PM) [snapback]298138[/snapback] I have to agree with everyone but shawn. I don't think the government should be able to withhold money from someone who spent their working lives paying into just because of a urine test.
Where do you think welfare money comes from? Everyobody pays into it in one way or another. Most SS recipients pull out more money than they put in. Where does all of that extra money come from?
Later...Shawn
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bigstew 6/20/07 10:00 PM | I disagree that recipients of welfare do not necessarily have to pay anything to receive anything. Almost every working citizen has money deducted from there check and payed in by their employer to their credit for receiving s.s benefits their entire working lives. Sadly, I have distant relatives that have collected welfare my entire life. Why should they be held to the same rules of someone who paid into a retirement system their whole adult lives working to get that rest in their golden years? |
Shawn 6/20/07 10:03 PM | QUOTE(bigstew @ Jun 20 2007, 10:00 PM) [snapback]298253[/snapback] I disagree that recipients of welfare do not necessarily have to pay anything to receive anything. Almost every working citizen has money deducted from there check and payed in by their employer to their credit for receiving s.s benefits their entire working lives. Sadly, I have distant relatives that have collected welfare my entire life. Why should they be held to the same rules of someone who paid into a retirement system their whole adult lives working to get that rest in their golden years?
Because SS is not a retirement system, it is a welfare system. It is using money earned by workers today to pay for people who are no longer working. SS is not an individual retirement acount, it is nothing more than welfare. The welfare paid to those not working comes from sources other than income taxes. Everyone who buys something is paying for some kind of tax along they way that is used to subsidize welfare.
Later...Shawn
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lanzate 6/20/07 10:17 PM | QUOTE(Alyssarah1 @ Jun 20 2007, 04:04 PM) [snapback]298136[/snapback] I had to have a chunk of my hair cut out for testing in order to work. Anyone paid NOT to work should have to do the same.
That is funny, I read about this somewhere but i didn't know anyone around here was doing that kind of test. Seems they can see if you used drugs in the past 4 months or longer depending on how long your hair is. hmm, maybe that is the reason behind all the shaved heads in the news lately. |
twinmom 6/20/07 10:20 PM | QUOTE(Alyssarah1 @ Jun 20 2007, 04:04 PM) [snapback]298136[/snapback] I had to have a chunk of my hair cut out for testing in order to work. Anyone paid NOT to work should have to do the same.
May I ask why you had to have your hair cut?
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usedmeat 6/20/07 11:15 PM | Lets extend this to the voting booth too. After all deciding the future of America is not something we would want to leave in the hands of the drug or alcohol impared.
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hahaha 6/20/07 11:17 PM | That would be a toss-up as to who loses more voters! |
Faulkner 6/21/07 8:41 AM | QUOTE(Shawn @ Jun 20 2007, 01:22 PM) [snapback]298055[/snapback] I'm all for it too. In fact that receives government money should get the pleasure of being tested for drugs. Including Social Security. Later...Shawn
It depends on how practical you want to be. Is it likely that retired people are abusing illegal drugs? Nope. Also, people over 65 are on so many legal drugs anyway, it hardly seems useful to test them.
QUOTE(justplainjoe @ Jun 20 2007, 03:55 PM) [snapback]298124[/snapback] good idea..these do nothings live off the public trough make them take a drug test. oh and by the way lets give them shitty hmo's and see how those pricks like it.
I'm with you man. Prejudging people isn't enough. Let's kill 'em too!
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Alyssarah1 6/21/07 8:54 AM | QUOTE(twinmom @ Jun 20 2007, 10:20 PM) [snapback]298266[/snapback]
May I ask why you had to have your hair cut?
It's my understanding that it's a much more thorough test than a simple urine test since it will show past drug use. I've never used a drug of any kind, so I wasn't concerned enough to question the reasons. They took out a chunk of my hair right to the scalp. The lady who did the test nearly fell over laughing when I told her that my husband wanted to know if the test could determine what color it is.
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usedmeat 6/21/07 9:07 AM | Erode freedom starting at the fringes of society. Drug screens for the poor, warrentless wiretaps on the brown skinned foreigners. What will you do when it's your turn?
Will you be like the poster who said they had nothing to hide so they didn't mind if some one listened in to their phone conversations?
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TheDude 6/21/07 9:11 AM | How in the heck is the questionnaire referred to going to prove anything?
Sure its cost-effective, but I highly doubt it is effective. Does anyone really trust someone who needs welfare to live to be honest on a questionnaire? (I'm not stereotyping welfare recipients as dishonest, just noting that they probably have a genuine need for the money)
I had to prove I wasn't an alcoholic at one point, and basically just filled out a questionnaire. One question was "Do you often drink in the morning?". It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that Yes=alcoholic and No-Not an alcoholic. |
Faulkner 6/21/07 9:25 AM | QUOTE(TheDude @ Jun 21 2007, 09:11 AM) [snapback]298396[/snapback] Does anyone really trust someone who needs welfare to live to be honest on a questionnaire?
More like -- wouldn't anyone lie on a questionaire if he knew that his livelihood was in jeopardy?
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Shawn 6/21/07 10:24 AM | QUOTE(Faulkner @ Jun 21 2007, 08:41 AM) [snapback]298380[/snapback]
It depends on how practical you want to be. Is it likely that retired people are abusing illegal drugs? Nope. Also, people over 65 are on so many legal drugs anyway, it hardly seems useful to test them.
I'm with you man. Prejudging people isn't enough. Let's kill 'em too!
Not all people receiving SS benefits are old and retired. I just thought of another group of people that should be tested---those receiving unemployment checks. How can they find a job if they are on drugs?
Honestly, I think the whole concept of testing is impractical and pretty useless.
Later...Shawn
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littledutchboy 6/21/07 10:38 AM | If you have no problem with employers testing employees or school testing students then there should be no problem testing welfare recipients.
You don’t want to pee in a cup? Don’t go on welfare.
Actually I don’t like drug testing …. But I dislike welfare recipients more….
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Faulkner 6/21/07 11:06 AM | Yeah, me too. When I feel the need to generalize entire groups of people, welfare recipients are up there with environmentalists (eco-terror-loving socialists), the disabled (what right do they have to use special parking spots???!), and of course, Lancastrians (they're all a bunch of ignorant yokels). That last one is the truest of them all.
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palmer 6/21/07 11:28 AM | Good idea. Use a hair sample rather than urine. It is more accurate.
Drugs are not free, they are rather expensive. If they are using drugs and getting a check it does not take a rocket scientist to determine what dollars are being used to buy the drugs. I have no sympathy for a 'poor' person who uses drugs. They are most likely 'poor' because of their drug usage. Personal accountability. If you don't have a job or income and need a check from the government you certainly do not have money for, or can afford, drugs. If you really need/want the money, don't do drugs. It is simple.
Now, we just need a plan that does not give a check/money and gives food and essentials. I believe it was Solitary who proposed a great idea for 'sin purchases' by check recipients.
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Faulkner 6/21/07 11:32 AM | QUOTE(palmer @ Jun 21 2007, 11:28 AM) [snapback]298489[/snapback] f you don't have a job or income and need a check from the government you certainly do not have money for, or can afford, drugs. If you really need/want the money, don't do drugs. It is simple. Either that, or depending if you're an addict, steal your neighbor's TV, rob a bank, or mug a pedestrian.
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TheDude 6/21/07 11:38 AM | QUOTE(palmer @ Jun 21 2007, 11:28 AM) [snapback]298489[/snapback] Drugs are not free, they are rather expensive. If they are using drugs and getting a check it does not take a rocket scientist to determine what dollars are being used to buy the drugs. I have no sympathy for a 'poor' person who uses drugs. They are most likely 'poor' because of their drug usage. Personal accountability. If you don't have a job or income and need a check from the government you certainly do not have money for, or can afford, drugs. If you really need/want the money, don't do drugs. It is simple.
You are right on Palmer.
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pml 6/21/07 11:42 AM | QUOTE(usedmeat @ Jun 20 2007, 11:15 PM) [snapback]298286[/snapback] Lets extend this to the voting booth too. After all deciding the future of America is not something we would want to leave in the hands of the drug or alcohol impared.
You know for many years bars and liquor stores were forced to close on election day and then they realized that people are not stupid. They will drink in their own home. The closings kept no one from voting while impaired. As for drug testing for welfare recipients, I think it is a wonderful idea. They are taking our tax dollars for their livlihood and many make a career out of it so why should they use our money to buy drugs instead of supporting their children which is what welfare is intended for? Mnay people are drug tested for their jobs. Welfare is a job for these people so why not prove the money is being used properly. |
justplainjoe 6/21/07 11:44 AM | QUOTE(Faulkner @ Jun 21 2007, 08:41 AM) [snapback]298380[/snapback]
I'm with you man. Prejudging people isn't enough. Let's kill 'em too!
i was talking about the state representatives not those on welfare.
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justplainjoe 6/21/07 11:55 AM | QUOTE(palmer @ Jun 21 2007, 11:28 AM) [snapback]298489[/snapback] Good idea. Use a hair sample rather than urine. It is more accurate.
Drugs are not free, they are rather expensive. If they are using drugs and getting a check it does not take a rocket scientist to determine what dollars are being used to buy the drugs. I have no sympathy for a 'poor' person who uses drugs. They are most likely 'poor' because of their drug usage. Personal accountability. If you don't have a job or income and need a check from the government you certainly do not have money for, or can afford, drugs. If you really need/want the money, don't do drugs. It is simple.
Now, we just need a plan that does not give a check/money and gives food and essentials. I believe it was Solitary who proposed a great idea for 'sin purchases' by check recipients.
what about the poor person who takes a few tokes from someones joint and doesn't pay for it?
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Starzs 6/21/07 11:56 AM | according to all the stuff on tv, crack and that sort are cheap which is why it's a favorite with the younger kids. |
Faulkner 6/21/07 12:29 PM | QUOTE(justplainjoe @ Jun 21 2007, 11:44 AM) [snapback]298497[/snapback]
i was talking about the state representatives not those on welfare.
Oh. Nevermind, sorry about that.
QUOTE(pml @ Jun 21 2007, 11:42 AM) [snapback]298495[/snapback] You know for many years bars and liquor stores were forced to close on election day and then they realized that people are not stupid. They will drink in their own home. The closings kept no one from voting while impaired. As for drug testing for welfare recipients, I think it is a wonderful idea. They are taking our tax dollars for their livlihood and many make a career out of it so why should they use our money to buy drugs instead of supporting their children which is what welfare is intended for? Mnay people are drug tested for their jobs. Welfare is a job for these people so why not prove the money is being used properly.
I would be for it, but I wouldn't support a zero tolerance policy. If they're caught using illegal drugs, enroll them in counseling or outpatient rehab and pay for it with a portion of their welfare check.
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usedmeat 6/21/07 12:43 PM | Closing bars on election day. The common voter knew he was going to be screwed by those in power so they figured they might as well get a free beer or two out of it. |
pml 6/21/07 1:13 PM | QUOTE(Faulkner @ Jun 21 2007, 12:29 PM) [snapback]298519[/snapback] Oh. Nevermind, sorry about that. I would be for it, but I wouldn't support a zero tolerance policy. If they're caught using illegal drugs, enroll them in counseling or outpatient rehab and pay for it with a portion of their welfare check. Well that would be great if the government paid for non welfare recipients to get a bed in a rehab. I have a cousin right now who needs adjustment on his meds and almost killed himself but can not get a psych appointment til Sept. I do not condone the government paying for irresponsible birthing women to get rehab. Take the children away and then they are on their own. Many families are interested in adopting or foster parenting. Stop rewarding bad behavior with free crap!!! |
palmer 6/21/07 1:26 PM | QUOTE(justplainjoe @ Jun 21 2007, 11:55 AM) [snapback]298501[/snapback] what about the poor person who takes a few tokes from someones joint and doesn't pay for it?
The stupidity clause takes effect. No check for you [them]!
Give them a mirror, tell them to take a good, long, hard look and ask themselves... "why am I here". Pocket poor does not equate to brain poor. Life has rewards and consequences. If you commit a crime or 'merely break the rules' then you must be ready to handle the consequences.
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Faulkner 6/21/07 1:33 PM | QUOTE(pml @ Jun 21 2007, 01:13 PM) [snapback]298539[/snapback] I do not condone the government paying for irresponsible birthing women to get rehab. Take the children away and then they are on their own.
At least we now know how it'd be done from a chauvinistic, inhumane, social Darwinist standpoint.
QUOTE(palmer @ Jun 21 2007, 01:26 PM) [snapback]298548[/snapback] If you commit a crime or 'merely break the rules' then you must be ready to handle the consequences.
Yeah! Who here has ever been given a second chance? Nobody, I'm sure!
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cyberscribbler 6/21/07 1:48 PM | Any money saved in cutting off welfare cases on drugs, will be eaten up by the cost of the drug tests & the lawyers defending it from civil suits, not to mention the potential increased law enforcement costs.
More cost shifiting legislation.
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littledutchboy 6/21/07 1:49 PM | QUOTE(Faulkner @ Jun 21 2007, 01:33 PM) [snapback]298552[/snapback]
At least we now know how it'd be done from a chauvinistic, inhumane, social Darwinist standpoint.
Yeah! Who here has ever been given a second chance? Nobody, I'm sure!
Well we already know how things work using the puzzy wiped far left socialistic plan….that’s what we have now.
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Faulkner 6/21/07 1:58 PM | I can tell you that the current system, with all of its flaws, is still better than the brand of state-sanctioned human cleansing of the poor that you endorse.
People like you have no capacity for empathy, and make left-leaning atheists look like the holy ministers.
What you endorse is no less than adult-term abortion. |
justplainjoe 6/21/07 2:12 PM | nothing makes a better whipping boy that the poor hapless slob on public assistance.reagan got a lot of milage with his welfare queen( colored of course, wif lotsa kids ) driving a brand new cadillac spiel.even an idiot like reagan knew better but he knew the masses did not and could be worked like a typical carney crowd.
god forbid if they are down on their luck.
heck let's kick all of the least among ye off of the indulgent welfare plan and send the money to iraq for hailiburton to steal.
better yet send it to those nice christians mercenaries working for blackwater so that they can kill anyone in iraq who hates americans for what we have visited upon them.LOL |
Faulkner 6/21/07 2:13 PM | Amen to that. |
BeingReal 6/21/07 2:45 PM | QUOTE(pml @ Jun 21 2007, 01:13 PM) [snapback]298539[/snapback] Take the children away and then they are on their own.
Yep, you hit the nail right on the head...the kids will be on their own. Not every person who is an addict is a bad person, PML. For example, Tugrad was an addict once and she's a mother.
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pml 6/21/07 3:03 PM | I believe in second chances but not at the governments expense. I am sick to dath of young girls living off of us while we pay outrageous premiums for healthcare and they get all the healtcare in the world for free just because they were fertile and did not use their AMerican right to abortion so they could go out an get a job like everybody else. Tugrad obviously was strong and got her act together. Great. But there are those out there who have no intention of getting straight. Just want the govt to pay for their habit. |
Faulkner 6/21/07 3:31 PM | So, basically, you're not pro-life or pro-choice, you're one of the few who are pro-abortion.
What about when sick smokers drive up the costs of health care premiums, eh? Who pays for that? Maybe instead of bashing nonsmokers, you should thank them for subsidizing your longevity,
Or maybe we should cut off your Social Security if you're just going to blow your money on cigarettes.
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bigstew 6/21/07 4:33 PM | QUOTE(Faulkner @ Jun 21 2007, 01:58 PM) [snapback]298571[/snapback] I can tell you that the current system, with all of its flaws, is still better than the brand of state-sanctioned human cleansing of the poor that you endorse.
People like you have no capacity for empathy, and make left-leaning atheists look like the holy ministers.
What you endorse is no less than adult-term abortion.
Wow, talk about knee-jerk reactions. I think your being a little over-dramatic.
I truly believe that sometimes people fall on hard times, but these free checks are crippling the people they are supposed to help.
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Faulkner 6/21/07 5:00 PM | That's just my response to Dutch Boy's post.
I agree with your statement, and I think that there are many laws and government programs that should be reassessed, including welfare, social security, copyright, and even the "right to choose."
My opinion, though, is that these programs and laws should be honestly re-evaluated, not detonated. |
bigstew 6/21/07 5:04 PM | I am more on the side of tough love. Maybe a 6 month time limit. But if they are spending money on drugs that are illegal, they need to have some sort of accountability. |
harv1 6/21/07 5:21 PM | "You know for many years bars and liquor stores were forced to close on election day and then they realized that people are not stupid. They will drink in their own home. The closings kept no one from voting while impaired."
Actually, the reason that bars and liquor stores were closed on election day was because votes used to be bought that way.
I'm for drug testing the Supreme Court... for those ten years that Rehnquist was blotto on 'ludes and vicodin and making NATIONAL POLICY through his supreme court decisions. The man was a total addict so I guess it shows that you can work and be a junkie at the same time. This little tidbit just doesn't seem to register well with many people. Yeesh. Yup, test the SCOTUS first! |
usedmeat 6/22/07 2:13 AM | If you read the article you know that similar laws were shot down as unconstitutional in other states. What makes our state legislature think that any law they craft won't suffer the same fate? All the money spent to enact this, then set up drug screening and finger printing centers, and possibly defend against a law suit could go toward real improvements to the welfare system. Is this what Rush Limbaugh means by"feel good" legislation? |
peddler 6/22/07 6:29 AM | QUOTE(justplainjoe @ Jun 21 2007, 11:44 AM) [snapback]298497[/snapback]
i was talking about the state representatives not those on welfare.
jo jo, most got what you were saying[great point by the way]
except for this Faulker,he is too busy being an idiot to think about what he is reading
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Faulkner 6/22/07 10:03 AM | QUOTE(peddler @ Jun 22 2007, 06:29 AM) [snapback]298842[/snapback] This...this Faulkner...boy he really gets my panties ruffled! I never!
Fixed it for you. |
peddler 6/22/07 2:33 PM | QUOTE(Faulkner @ Jun 22 2007, 10:03 AM) [snapback]298936[/snapback] Fixed it for you.
nice work you little faulker
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Faulkner 6/24/07 3:49 PM | Not as good as Peddlerphile, but I'll give you a half-point for it. |
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