Post your thoughts and comments about this blog post.

I assure you the writer of this letter was either a.) An Evangelical in name only (without any true knowledge or enlightenment or emotional brusing, i.e. too fragile to get the big picture) or b.) A fraud with political ambitions. Gil, you swallowed this one hook, line, and sinker because it suits your political position.

A true Evangelical would focus on doing good works for society based on belief and motivation.

A true Evangelical wasn't saved for him/herself, but for a larger interest in social justice.

A true Evangelical wouldn't swallow the 'Kool Aid' of the liberal agenda and allow him/herself to be used in this way.

A true Evangelical would have the strenght and commitment of their stated beliefs and an ongoing relationship with God (the Son or the Holy Spirit) and inspiration to find motivation to work within the system

A true Believer wouldn't be so easily discouraged by injustice, but rather inspired by it.

The attitude of the Evangelical Christians (among others) who have good health and good health insurance plans seems not to be "let's care for the least of these" but rather "screw you, I've got mine. Get a job!" I wonder what Christ would say...

in response to Scalewoodman and ceejay:
First to Ceejay: Evangelicals haven't existed for the last 2009 years. Theirs is a relatively new sect, born more of American independence ideals than Christian values of community and brotherly love. Evangelicals are "in the trenches" working for social justice? What is it exactly that Evangelcals are doing to help their fellow Americans who are living with out health insurance? What particular "trench work" have you done to help those going without medication, doctor visits or dental care? These are news stories I must have missed. Please refer me to the ones you mean.

After attending two different Evangelical churches for a total of 26 years, I learned exactly the same thing the hard way. That's why my wife and I are not currently attending a church, even though we are both born-again Christians. Among other reasons, we simply got sick and tired of being told that we cannot possibly be Christians if we are registered as Democrats.

I strongly suggest that EVERYONE re-read the first four books of the New Testament, and study exactly how Jesus deals with those who are less fortunate than others. Some people might be surprised at what is written there.

Religion gives hope to people who live in a world torn apart by religion. ___Charlie Chaplin

Great points, Artie.

Last night, at dinner, I heard people complaining about NBC News' interview with our president. These conservative christian republicans are dismayed that Obama supports women advancing themselves in their personal and professional lives.

God forbid that a woman does anything but bake, clean and be pregnant, as well as always in bare feet, of course!

As I get older (and wiser), I find more and more holes in the Bible and in the way evangelicals and conservative christians in general think. Sorry, but I don't want the woman as depicted in the Bible. I want someone who can think for themselves, do for themselves, has goals and aspirations and does not demean themselves just because they are in the presence of a man.

I would ask that you give LCBC a try, Artie. Both you and your wife would be accepted as is. I assure you.

I would ask that you give LCBC a try, Artie. Both you and your wife would be accepted as is. I assure you.

It is essentially Christian logic to support healthcare reform.

Like Esther, Deborah, Huldah, Mary, Lydia, Priscilla???

No arguments there, madam. Which makes the point I made even more of a contradiction. The Bible is just all over the place. Its word is not really its word because its word is so deviating and inconsistent. One must find what works for them.

If anyone would actually take the time to READ the first four books of the New Testament, and witness how Jesus treats people, this would be obvious.

The Bible is constant and unchanging. There is a common thread that runs through the entire Bible, and it's not "find what works for them"...there are many absolutes in the Bible. It's not a buffet that you pick and choose from what suits you and discard what doesn't.

conservatives reach out and try to help others and themselves

You are so right BeingReal...

I would advise anyone who's still searching in the Christian faith after becoming disillusioned with not only Evangelicalism but mainstream Protestantism to read the book "Common Ground" by Jordan Bajis. Check Amazon. It will open doors to "new" ways for former Evangelicals and mainline Protestants as well as Roman Catholics to see the Christianity that has been lost for so long to Westerners. You will realize that Evangelicalism, or as I like to call it "Christianity for Kindergartners", is stripped, heretical, unhistorical and outside the guidelines laid down by Christ when forming his Church. Read the book, especially you, Artie See. I know exactly where you and your wife are. I grieve for you and hope that you haven't turned from the Christian faith yet. It's a sad and lonely place to be but there is still room in the Christian church for you. Yes, I know you're godless, liberal, baby-killing Democrats. You probably don't understand that God loves Americans more than any other nation on earth. You probably don't grasp the "Christian" concept that it's OK to wage war on a nation that's done nothing to provoke us and kill 85,000 of their citizens. (Did you know that since we invaded Iraq more than 40,000 Christians have left that country? Yes, there ARE Christians in the lands where Christianity was first formed. Since the Americans have invaded, Christians have been persecuted anew in a land where they were once free to worship, even among their Muslim countrymen.) As I'm sure you know, Jesus directly commanded us to "defend our nation" at all costs and to "strike pre-emptively". Jesus was very much concerned with the nations of this world and our ability to protect and defend ourselves. Now if only we could stop this "dithering" in Afghanistan and show the world that we mean business! I mean, that we are Christians! They'll know we are Christians by our love - our love for the free market, untethered capitalism, and the status quo as the only western country with no viable health care for our citizens.

Don't worry ceeyjay, I won't bother to respond to you with my "Christian bashing" since I am a Christian. I know, you can't believe there can be Christians outside the Evangelcial world but get out your Bible and look really hard - can you find the phrases "personal Savior" or "decision for Christ" anywhere in it? Do you ever wonder how the early Church not only survived but flourished in the face of intense persecutions when there was no New Testament? Do you ever wonder where your beautiful leather-bound canon of Scripture came from? You sound intelligent - it may be time to leave Kindergarten and learn about your Christian roots. Your "shepherd" comment is interesting - you do realize that there WAS no Christian religion at that point, right? There had been no crucifixtion, no resurrection and no Pentecost. How exactly at that point had Christ redeemed mankind - with his birth alone? Please learn your church history. (Hint - you will need more than an NIV New Testament translated from the Latin Vulgate). It will enlighten you in ways never imagined and deepen your understanding of our Christian faith and heritage.

I digress.... Artie See, I will pray for you and your wife and others on this post looking for real answers on the Chiristian faith. Read the book and may God bless you on your journey to find your way back to Him.

Concur. Conservatives watch out for #1 and only #1.

Thanks. But we're looking for a church in Lancaster City, where we live.

The cristicism is what I stated originally -They preach a doctrine of being their brother's keeper, but when it comes down to implementing a legal system to administer health care to the uninsured, they want no part of it. How I wish that private donations and charitable giving could solve this problem! But apparantly this problem is too big for the churches hence we find ourselves where we are right now, with 7,000 more people losing their health care benefits every single day. Where will it end? The churches seem to be losing this battle and people are dying due to lack of basic care. All I'm saying is that real Christians should be doing whatever it takes to solve this problem. We have an obligation to the least of these, have an obligation to care for all our fellow citizens and to love and bless ALL peoples. A new system will not be perfect. There are many options to choose from as to the best way to change our system. Some things will work and some things won't. There will still be fraud and abuse. We will need to tinker and alter. But we can not just sit by and do nothing. Not if we call ourselves Christians who love God and love our neighbors.

Is there any guarantee the new system will provide better care? Will it cover more people? Could it cause lower health standards and more people to die? If people believe any of the above then why should they endorse a 'legal system' to administer health care? Simply placing people in different classes does nothing to help your cause. Everyone is an individual and everyone has different thoughts and opinions. Have you seen any mainstream Evangelical groups come out and say they do not want people to have access to health care? Do they wish death upon them? Is it possible they see other solutions to the problems but currently have no representation to be heard?

Is there any guarantee the new system will provide better care? Will it cover more people? Could it cause lower health standards and more people to die? If people believe any of the above then why should they endorse a 'legal system' to administer health care? Simply placing people in different classes does nothing to help your cause. Everyone is an individual and everyone has different thoughts and opinions. Have you seen any mainstream Evangelical groups come out and say they do not want people to have access to health care? Do they wish death upon them? Is it possible they see other solutions to the problems but currently have no representation to be heard?

Concur. Conservatives watch out for #1 and only #1.

No, there is no guarantee. The only thing guaranteed in this whole debate is that more people will lose their health care if we do nothing. There is no law in place now to force any employer to offer health insurance to any employee. At any time, we could all lose our employer-provided insurance if the employer decides to stop offering it. With costs rising as they are how long will our businesses be able to provide these insurance benefits?
Yes, it will cover more people. That's the whole point of having a public option to choose from if you currently have no option.
It could cause many problems and lower standards, especially at first. I think I stated that. Or it could not. I don't claim to have a perfect solution or be able to read the future. As I said, there is no perfect system and we won't get this problem fixed on the first try. We will have to revisit, re-debate, alter and change as necessary. It won't be pretty. Or easy.
Even if you believe "the above", if you say you're a Christian, then I see no other alternative at this point. Simply doing nothing will not help those in need. If you don't claim to be a Christian, then this is a different story. You are under no obligation to live under Christ's commands. Perhaps this is what you mean by putting people in "different classes". I'm not sure what you mean by that.
No, I have never seen anyone come out and say that they don't want everyone to have access to health care. However, actions or inactions speak much louder than words. I would never suggest anyone wishes death on another. However facts are facts. People are dying without access to healthcare. I wish it were not so, but it is.
I suppose it is possible that they have another solution to the problem. I am much in favor of the tort reform that I've seen Republicans in Congress propose. However, this alone won't solve the problem. There are pleny of elected officials and plenty of TV and radio pundits and spokespeople who are able to propose other solutions. I wait and watch for those solutions to appear.

Is there any guarantee the new system will provide better care? Will it cover more people? Could it cause lower health standards and more people to die? If people believe any of the above then why should they endorse a 'legal system' to administer health care? Simply placing people in different classes does nothing to help your cause. Everyone is an individual and everyone has different thoughts and opinions.

Thanks. But we're looking for a church in Lancaster City, where we live.

It is not so much a question of individual rank-and-file Evangelicals not caring/giving to Christian causes. To me it is the failure of individual Evangelicals not insisting that their leaders offer a plan, a solution, to the problems facing the uninsured. The error, as I see it, is being content to be satisfied with the terrible leadership void. The Republican leaders in Congress (who so pointedly condemn the Democratic proposals but offer no alternative) should not be the spokespersons of the Evangelicals. The radio and TV talk show hosts should not be their spokespersons. But those who could be the spokespersons are __?__ what? Waiting? Hoping? Assuming that the status quo is OK? The Evangelical religious leaders should be pressuring the Congress to lead in finding a viable solution to this dilemma if those in Congress want to be able to continue to count on the Evangelical vote! Why, my goodness, Rick Warren and/or James Dobson can generate hundreds of thousands of letters/phone calls to Congress by simply requesting their followers to "march!"

Are the Evangelical churches who can present a unified front on so many social issues impotent when it comes to pressuring the "famous" spokespersons to articulate viable solutions?

Among other reasons, we simply got sick and tired of being told that we cannot possibly be Christians if we are registered as Democrats.

Have you actually read the bills, both versions that they are trying to mesh? They are available in multiple places online including opencongress.

There is nothing in the bills that will rein in healthcare costs. All that will be accomplished is that costs will skyrocket for everyone. How is supporting the bankruptcy of the U.S. citizen and the destruction of the U.S. economy the Christian thing to do?

All of us want reform. We want everyone to be covered. We want costs to be controlled. These bills in their present form do not do that.

And facts are facts. You are right. People are dying. People with wonderful health insurance are dying. For you to judge a whole religion based on your own perceptions of "their" reaction to a governmental process over which they have zero control is not rational. Within our circle of very close friends, there are those who want single payer, those who want government option, those who want the government to butt out, and those who have no insurance because they are convicted that it reveals a lack of faith in God to carry insurance. Within our close circle of friends there are several staunch atheists, an R.C. couple, two Orthodox Jews, 14 Christians who attend 4 different Protestant churches. It might be best not to try to put people in a box and judge them or their religion or lack thereof.

OK ceejay, you're right. Saving money and worrying about costs is much more Christian than worrying about people's lives. I assume you were protesting the $10 billion a month that our government spent in Iraq to fund the war.

Yes, I've read the bills, some parts more closely than others. You're right again, they are not perfect. I think I stated this in a previous post. I stated that there would be much work needing to be done. Let's get busy.

Doing nothing will also bankrupt our economy. Again, I stated this earlier. With costs rising as they are how long will our businesses be able to provide these insurance benefits?

Again, I'm not judging you or your "religion". We are both Christians, remember? Or is it as I said in my first post - Evangelicalism is a different "sect" of Chrsitianity? You said I was wrong in saying that but now you seem to say that we are not the same religion. Perhaps [i]you are judging me.
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Lastly, you have plenty of control. You have a rep and sen to contact. Apparantly most Evangelicals who are Republican are contacting their reps to "just say no" to any health care reform efforts. I see a lot of control going on in your party, not "zero" or we'd have a viable health care reform bill by now. Dems can get nothing done due to the drowning out of honest debate and fear-mongering from Republicans. I assume these reps are representing their constituents, many of whom are Evangelical and speaking out.

I seem to be repeating myself to your same points. I have waited for you to rebut some of my points but that's not happening. Only you and I are listening any more so it's silly to keep debating this issue. I won't post again. You take the last word ceejay and congratulations on your wide social circle. You are blessed indeed!

West End Fellowship is a very interesting church in the city.

Liberals sit back and expect the government to do for them.....conservatives reach out and try to help others and themselves.

You really know how to open a can of worms...

I believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God. I believe that God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. I believe that it is by grace we can be saved, through faith—and this not from ourselves, it is the gift of God. That makes me a conservative Christian.

At the same time, I believe we have an obligation to help care for those who are less fortunate than ourselves, just like Jesus does in the Bible. That makes me a political liberal.

Over a period of approximately 26 years, I attended two local churches. One was mainstream and urban, the other was pentecostal and suburban. Both supported overseas missionaries, but NEITHER gave more than lip service to local needs.

Members of the urban church often talked about "those people" - meaning minorities - in derogatory terms. When a Hispanic congregation rented space from the urban congregation, members of the Official Board (I was a Trustee at the time) actually came out and said they didn't want those "dirty" children to use the church's nursery (which resulted in me shooting off my mouth).

Members of the suburban church wouldn't even come into Lancaster if at all possible. We did have a series of meetings at my house, but they all came directly into Lancaster, and left as directly as possible.

The point I am trying to make is this: a conservative Christian is not necessarily a political conservative. And I have met VERY few political conservatives who reach out and try to help others. MOST political conservatives - including Christians - are obsessed with "personal responsibility", not about helping those who really need help the most.