Begging the big question
December 5th, 2008 12:23 pm · 11 comments
With an eye on the astounding job-loss figures released today - 533,000 jobs cut in November, the biggest number since 1974 - I’m with John Cole:
When I see numbers like that, it really wipes away all the reservations I have about the auto bailout. I dont like it, and probably think they will p*ss away the money, but at this point, anything we can do to save jobs, we should.
Noted this in the economic Katrina post the other eve, but worth repeating: If we let the auto industry fail, you’re likely talking tens, maybe hundreds of thousands more jobs lost; you’re talking nationwide unemployment in double digits. You’re also talking a snowball effect.
Begs the big question. In this economic meltdown, are we gonna try to save/preserve what we’ve got - or let it burn down as far as it goes, and start over?
The former may indeed mean more socialism than you ever thought you’d see in your life. The latter may mean something far, far worse.
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Tags: Automotive Industry · Economy
There are currently 11 comments on this blog postView Topic | Comment on this blognewsjunkie 12/5/08 11:32 AM | Begs the big question. In this economic meltdown, are we gonna try to save/preserve what we’ve got - or let it burn down as far as it goes, and start over?
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We decided to not start over when they bailed out the banks...WE are stuck with what we've got...which is corporate welfare...and big money for "big money"... |
gsmart 12/5/08 11:47 AM | We decided to not start over when they bailed out the banks...WE are stuck with what we've got...which is corporate welfare...and big money for "big money"...
I agree, and in some respects I think of what's happening now in terms of a forest fire. I've said this before; when you try and "manage" forests so there's never a fire, you get the tangle of undergrowth choking out the healthy plants, you get something that's even more primed for a devastating fire. Permitting the forest fire to burn is actually healthy for the forest in the long run.
But we're not talking trees here, we're talking people and communities. And my biggest fear is this:
We let the auto companies fail, both for valid economic reasons and because - in our inimitable American moralistic fashion - we want to teach all involved a lesson.
But as a result, hundreds of thousands of jobs are lost, and the country does indeed slide into a depression. And what winds up happening is that some of the very people who cried "Let 'em fail!" will lose their jobs. Their communities may be devastated. And they are going to be angry - very angry.
But at whom will they direct their anger?
Because there will be no shortage of people looking to manipulate that anger. For this country, in the modern age, this type of displacement is unfathomable, or could be. We have no idea what a depression is like, and I suspect that if we're unlucky enough to get one, it's going to be significantly harder than anyone expects. That intense anger is going to be widespread.
And what happens in societies where people are displaced, out of work - and angry? Do nice, democratic traditions suffice? Or is this maybe one of the reasons both communism and fascism looked like the ideologies of the future, circa 1933? |
littledutchboy 12/5/08 11:55 AM | Whether to bail out the auto industry or not is not the only 2 options, we are now in the post big boom era, everything we believed in relating to consumerism will have to be rethought, the huge personal indebtedness needed to keep our big wheel spinning is a thing of the past, the way our auto industry, (including the unions) did business is also a thing of the past. It’s time for restructuring on all levels which might best be achieved through a structured bankruptcy.
I see no long term benefit….just the opposite in creating business zombies; companies that are walking, (still doing business the old way) but are dead.
If no one can buy a new car what would a bail out do but prolong the inevitable, 2ndly where would the bail out stop, what other industries will need help?
|
newsjunkie 12/5/08 11:57 AM | I agree, and in some respects I think of what's happening now in terms of a forest fire. I've said this before; when you try and "manage" forests so there's never a fire, you get the tangle of undergrowth choking out the healthy plants, you get something that's even more primed for a devastating fire. Permitting the forest fire to burn is actually healthy for the forest in the long run.
But we're not talking trees here, we're talking people and communities. And my biggest fear is this:
We let the auto companies fail, both for valid economic reasons and because - in our inimitable American moralistic fashion - we want to teach all involved a lesson.
But as a result, hundreds of thousands of jobs are lost, and the country does indeed slide into a depression. And what winds up happening is that some of the very people who cried "Let 'em fail!" will lose their jobs. Their communities may be devastated. And they are going to be angry - very angry....
And so, my reasoning is...since we saved the banks and decided then not to "start over' ,the auto companies should be "brought through the fire" too...(to use your analogy), because they do still have a HUGE role in the US economy and manufacturing base (what little we have left)... edit to respond to LDB...I consider a structured bankruptcy a bailout...and am all for it...Much too little "structure" to the bank bailout.... |
justplainjoe 12/5/08 12:12 PM | bail them out with loans, not grants. give the taxpayers class a preferred shares. fire the execs and bring new people on board. give the union workers shares as deferred payment on any raises for the next 5 years. cut some silly union rules that create inefficiency. |
cyberscribbler 12/5/08 12:20 PM | The entire auto industry is in a slump. Sales are down 40% with the big 3 and 30% with Toyota, Honda, Nissan. The banks aren't lending money to anyone who's a credit risks. So it won't do any good to bailout detroit if they can't sell enough cars to anyone. |
citydweller 12/6/08 12:19 AM | Bailout, at least in terms of the financial industry, is already proving to be the equivalent of a "compassionate family" sitting by the bedside of a dying alcoholic and giving them shots of booze "to ease their suffering".
I had to watch that once as a kid, and it didn't seem to me that it helped anyone. The dying lush took the booze greedily and still died anyway, and everyone still grieved just as much. And a lot of good booze got wasted in the process.
And now, here, we watch on TV every night as the Elephants Guarding The Peanuts innocently explain that they just don't know what happened to the 360 Billion Peanuts they gave the Other Elephants Who Were In Trouble. I mean, The Other Elephants were supposed to lend all the Peanuts to The Squirrels, especially the ones about to lose their nests, but somehow that just didn't happen.
You may just as well hand the shot of booze to the dying alcoholic and say "Here, why don't you give this to a more sober person who isn't dying and could just use a drink pretty badly right now?" Riiiiiiight.
But that's what we're doing here - pouring good booze down a dying alky's gullet, vainly hoping it will somehow revive them.
Everyone, and by "everyone" I mean the people who avoid actual work by either running our system or commenting on it, wants us to believe that there's some actual difference between Wall Street and Washington, wherein the loosing of Billions of Dollars into Paulson's greasy hands will somehow translate into "responsible transference and oversight" of that huge pile of cash into the hands of his friends and colleagues. And we just sit here and watch it happen.
When the occasional responsible legislator or honest pundit squawks an angry question about just where the hell all the money went, Paulson dives out of his Elephant suit and calmly replies "Sirs, I am NOT an alcoholic, see, I don't go to meetings".
And then we're quickly whisked off to see Afghanistan or Iraq or Sudan or, worse, Wall Street, and reminded that we MUST DO SOMETHING NOW OR PEOPLE WILL SUFFER. Never mind that people are suffering, all over the place, just keep it in your head that we absolutely MUST empty the Treasury immediately or it could get MUCH WORSE.
And what they aren't telling us is that, to their thinking, the very worst possible is a large group of Fat Cats losing the spoils they stole from us and, even worse, losing the system by which they expected to continue their despoiling until Kingdom Come.
And this is what we're agreeing on trying to fix by throwing money at it.
Forget the Elephant In The Room for a moment. Look at all the Peanuts he's been eating while we weren't noticing him.
Letting it burn may will hurt, alot, but on the other side of the fire we have a reality to base our rebuilding on. Keep trimming the forest and all we will get is the galaxy's largest topiary, growing in a big pile of $chit. |
newsjunkie 12/6/08 8:11 AM | Bailout, at least in terms of the financial industry, is already proving to be the equivalent of a "compassionate family" sitting by the bedside of a dying alcoholic and giving them shots of booze "to ease their suffering".
I had to watch that once as a kid, and it didn't seem to me that it helped anyone. The dying lush took the booze greedily and still died anyway, and everyone still grieved just as much. And a lot of good booze got wasted in the process.
And now, here, we watch on TV every night as the Elephants Guarding The Peanuts innocently explain that they just don't know what happened to the 360 Billion Peanuts they gave the Other Elephants Who Were In Trouble. I mean, The Other Elephants were supposed to lend all the Peanuts to The Squirrels, especially the ones about to lose their nests, but somehow that just didn't happen.
You may just as well hand the shot of booze to the dying alcoholic and say "Here, why don't you give this to a more sober person who isn't dying and could just use a drink pretty badly right now?" Riiiiiiight.
But that's what we're doing here - pouring good booze down a dying alky's gullet, vainly hoping it will somehow revive them.
Everyone, and by "everyone" I mean the people who avoid actual work by either running our system or commenting on it, wants us to believe that there's some actual difference between Wall Street and Washington, wherein the loosing of Billions of Dollars into Paulson's greasy hands will somehow translate into "responsible transference and oversight" of that huge pile of cash into the hands of his friends and colleagues. And we just sit here and watch it happen.
When the occasional responsible legislator or honest pundit squawks an angry question about just where the hell all the money went, Paulson dives out of his Elephant suit and calmly replies "Sirs, I am NOT an alcoholic, see, I don't go to meetings".
And then we're quickly whisked off to see Afghanistan or Iraq or Sudan or, worse, Wall Street, and reminded that we MUST DO SOMETHING NOW OR PEOPLE WILL SUFFER. Never mind that people are suffering, all over the place, just keep it in your head that we absolutely MUST empty the Treasury immediately or it could get MUCH WORSE.
And what they aren't telling us is that, to their thinking, the very worst possible is a large group of Fat Cats losing the spoils they stole from us and, even worse, losing the system by which they expected to continue their despoiling until Kingdom Come.
And this is what we're agreeing on trying to fix by throwing money at it.
Forget the Elephant In The Room for a moment. Look at all the Peanuts he's been eating while we weren't noticing him.
Letting it burn may will hurt, alot, but on the other side of the fire we have a reality to base our rebuilding on. Keep trimming the forest and all we will get is the galaxy's largest topiary, growing in a big pile of $chit.
See, the "big trees" have already been fire proofed..so as the rest of the forest is decimated...they'll be the ones left at the end with "nuts' to drop and re-seed the forest...It's too late to 'let it burn and start over" the chance for that was before the bank bailout...then yes...I was all for letting it burn... Not anymore...for the reasons I say (metaphorically)..Because when this fire is over...there will be no underbrush...just big trees and their spawn...(unless we put firefighters on the understory as well) |
Paisley 12/6/08 9:31 AM | GM has a lot of nerve to ask for a bailout. They've been closing plants yet maintaining CEO bonuses, and they've been out-sourcing jobs for what, the last 10 years? And still are. So, they sell the taxpayers' jobs for years and years, giving that money to China, India, Russia... and now they turn to those very same taxpayers to ask for money?
It's infuriating.
How about giving that money to those that will get laid off? How about giving them all a new car? That will get rid of the inventory. But for pete's sake don't give to rich cats who have done nothing but screw the American worker and have shown their true metal (all out for themselves) for YEARS. |
AngelFace 12/6/08 9:49 AM | GM has a lot of nerve to ask for a bailout. They've been closing plants yet maintaining CEO bonuses, and they've been out-sourcing jobs for what, the last 10 years? And still are. So, they sell the taxpayers' jobs for years and years, giving that money to China, India, Russia... and now they turn to those very same taxpayers to ask for money?
It's infuriating.
How about giving that money to those that will get laid off? How about giving them all a new car? That will get rid of the inventory. But for pete's sake don't give to rich cats who have done nothing but screw the American worker and have shown their true metal (all out for themselves) for YEARS.
It absolutely IS infuriating.
Good post ... (and welcome -- altho' you will find logic and rationality are usually not esteemed on TB ... ) |
Freedom 12/8/08 3:48 PM | GM has a lot of nerve to ask for a bailout. They've been closing plants yet maintaining CEO bonuses, and they've been out-sourcing jobs for what, the last 10 years? And still are. So, they sell the taxpayers' jobs for years and years, giving that money to China, India, Russia... and now they turn to those very same taxpayers to ask for money?
It's infuriating.
How about giving that money to those that will get laid off? How about giving them all a new car? That will get rid of the inventory. But for pete's sake don't give to rich cats who have done nothing but screw the American worker and have shown their true metal (all out for themselves) for YEARS.
What is infuriating is the "jobs bank", and free lifetime health benefits that the rest of us have to pitch in and pay for. Yes the CEO's and upper echelon exec bonuses are obscene, but so are the bene's the employees of the Big 3 get. I might be able to see a little compassion if they made a decent car at an affordable price, but, they don't...give me a toyota anyday...
Have a great day!!! |
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