Out-Jesusing the GOP
July 2nd, 2008 2:36 pm · 17 comments
In which Pastor Dan notes:
I like Barack Obama. I like his faith.** Up until recently, we shared that faith pretty much exactly. Time and again, I have defended his right to talk about his faith. Hell, for all I care, candidates can talk about their love of pooties if it helps voters get to know them. And yes, Obama has to overplay this hand in a sense to defeat the Bad-Christian-Muslim-Secularist-Infidel rumors that swirl around him.
But all that being said, do we really need a presidential campaign based on out-Jesusing the other side?
At what point do we stop speaking in the language of conservative Evangelicals and actually become them?
Well, I think the idea is to neuter them politically. Which sounds far more crass than Obama (and maybe even Pastor Dan) would ever put it.
Nevertheless, look: Evangelical Christians have tended to vote overwhelmingly Republican in recent years, but when you actually speak with evangelical Christians, you realize that a lot of their core beliefs are actually not conservative. I’m not talking about things like abortion or homosexuality, the things we’ve allowed to define the debate; I’m talking about society’s obligation to the less fortunate, the poor and the wayward. Go-go capitalism and deregulation doesn’t exactly foster compassion; there’s an argument to be made that progressivism and ulitmately the Democratic Party should appeal more to evangelicals. I can’t speak to Obama’s personal faith, though that’s obviously a huge aspect of this; but clearly he understands the political math, and is trying to do something about it.
Which is to say I don’t think this is so much about Obama becoming one of them. I think it’s about them coming over to the Obama coalition.
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Tags: Obama · Religious conservatism · Religion
There are currently 17 comments on this blog postView Topic | Comment on this blogArtVandolay
7/2/08
2:51 PM |
Which is to say I don’t think this is so much about Obama becoming one of them. I think it’s about them coming over to the Obama coalition.
Come on, Gil - you are just trying to justify in your mind that BHO is trying to SHOW that he is a moderate, and that is OK to cross over... not the most liberal Senator in DC. In fact he showing he is NOT about change, he his a phony politician.
And he is getting the left in a big snit.
Do you really feal the Evangelicals are going fall for this trickery? You have to realize they are aware of the types of Supremes he would nominate. I guess I am saying that people are falling over each other to fall in love with BHO. They are ignoring the evolution of the "middle" politician he is trying to become.
Maybe not good posting etiquette, but here my post from your "Courting Evangelicals" that I submitted this morning:
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Watching DB Keith Olbermann last night was great - he was trying so hard with so much sincerity to buy and promote BHO's new positions on gun laws, wiretapping and now, get this...Faith Based initiatives. What a crock of ^&$%!
Come on, even Obama lovers have got to see the BS in Obama's new buzz word "inartful"! The real Obama is out- no change or hope. Same as the old boss! Get fooled again??
Blogger Matt Stoller has gone from early Obama cheerleader to scorching critic in recent weeks, writing about the "corroded corruption at the heart of moving to the center."
http://www.nypost.com/seven/07022008/news/...dust_118154.htm
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dragonrider
7/2/08
3:25 PM | Obama has 0% chance of winning any hardcore conservative evangelical, (I wish people would remember to add conservative) whose votes will be based solely on abortion, gay marriage and guns. On these issues McBush may not be 100% in agreement but they know the Supremes he puts on the court are more likely to vote their way than the ones Obama would put on the court.
Obama has flipped on a lot of issues , so has McCain this has been the story of primary to main election for awhile. Flank to the left for dems in primary and toward center for main election, Flank to the right for reps in the primary and then on to the center for the main election. So whats new absotively nothing. So I should vote for McBush becuase Obama does what he needs to do to get nominated and then elected sorry I will vote for McBush when he11 freezes over.
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dragonrider
7/2/08
3:40 PM | QUOTE(dragonrider @ Jul 2 2008, 03:25 PM) [snapback]407422[/snapback] Obama has 0% chance of winning any hardcore conservative evangelical, (I wish people would remember to add conservative) whose votes will be based solely on abortion, gay marriage and guns. On these issues McBush may not be 100% in agreement but they know the Supremes he puts on the court are more likely to vote their way than the ones Obama would put on the court.
Obama has flipped on a lot of issues , so has McCain this has been the story of primary to main election for awhile. Flank to the left for dems in primary and toward center for main election, Flank to the right for reps in the primary and then on to the center for the main election. So whats new absotively nothing. So I should vote for McBush becuase Obama does what he needs to do to get nominated and then elected sorry I will vote for McBush when he11 freezes over.
If Obama does too much of this kowtowing to the prosletizers of intolerance then he risks loosing his liberal christian base. yeah we exist liberal Christians. I wish people who quit assuming all christians are right wing |
GeezUS
7/2/08
6:26 PM | QUOTE(dragonrider @ Jul 2 2008, 03:40 PM) [snapback]407438[/snapback] If Obama does too much of this kowtowing to the prosletizers of intolerance then he risks loosing his liberal christian base. yeah we exist liberal Christians.
Do you mean liberal Christians or Christian liberals or liberal Christian liberals?
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dragonrider
7/2/08
8:27 PM | QUOTE(GeezUS @ Jul 2 2008, 06:26 PM) [snapback]407491[/snapback]
Do you mean liberal Christians or Christian liberals or liberal Christian liberals?
yes |
graphicsully
7/7/08
10:10 AM | QUOTE(dragonrider @ Jul 2 2008, 08:27 PM) [snapback]407510[/snapback]
yes
This is exactly, and I can't stress exactly enough, what is wrong with the liberal mindset. This is something Christians and most concervatives can see but liberals will never see. There is no faking it with "evangelicals". Their belief is just the beginning of a mindset change that has absolutely nothing to do with their effort in changing their mind. It is the God of the Bible in the form of the Holy Spirit which changes and molds their mind. There is not person that believes in the Word that became Flesh and then still believes in a liberal mindset. You either believe the Word that became Flesh or you don't. This is the part of Christianity that is black and white. The parts that are gray are man made, religiosity, legalistic or just plain old comfort food. |
littledutchboy
7/7/08
10:56 AM | QUOTE
At what point do we stop speaking in the language of conservative Evangelicals and actually become them?
We? Don't know who he is referring to.
It's so predictable that Oboomer is now swerving toward the center, (good luck that's a lot of territory to cover). Convincing the "middle" voters he's really not that liberal is the only hope he has…..again good luck with that one.
[font="Times"]I want to know about the "missing years", those years Oboomer spent as a so called "community activist", I figure that if those causes were "main stream" we would have heard about them by now. Why haven't we heard about them?
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dragonrider
7/7/08
11:49 AM | QUOTE(graphicsully @ Jul 7 2008, 10:10 AM) [snapback]408576[/snapback]
This is exactly, and I can't stress exactly enough, what is wrong with the liberal mindset. This is something Christians and most concervatives can see but liberals will never see. There is no faking it with "evangelicals". Their belief is just the beginning of a mindset change that has absolutely nothing to do with their effort in changing their mind. It is the God of the Bible in the form of the Holy Spirit which changes and molds their mind. There is not person that believes in the Word that became Flesh and then still believes in a liberal mindset. You either believe the Word that became Flesh or you don't. This is the part of Christianity that is black and white. The parts that are gray are man made, religiosity, legalistic or just plain old comfort food. I seem to remember Jesus seeing a whole lot of grey, like doing good works on the sabbath. The big D between liberal christians and conservative christians, is #1 liberals are willing to admit there is more than one way to express christianity. And the big D #2 is liberal christians emphasize the sermon on the mount and Jesus message to Peter about violence while conservative christians empasize legalism of the Bible and follow the pharasee tradition of the law. |
AngelFace
7/7/08
12:16 PM | QUOTE(dragonrider @ Jul 7 2008, 11:49 AM) [snapback]408627[/snapback]
I seem to remember Jesus seeing a whole lot of grey, like doing good works on the sabbath. The big D between liberal christians and conservative christians, is #1 liberals are willing to admit there is more than one way to express christianity. And the big D #2 is liberal christians emphasize the sermon on the mount and Jesus message to Peter about violence while conservative christians empasize legalism of the Bible and follow the pharasee tradition of the law.
Wow. Generalize? Broad brush? Showing just a tad bit of bias and prejudice and bigotry? Oh, wait, that's right, liberal christianity would never think of judging or throwing the first stone, right? Tell me, which part of the Sermon on the Mount were you exemplifying as you called ALL CONSERVATIVE CHRISTIANS legalists and Pharisees???? |
graphicsully
7/7/08
12:48 PM | QUOTE(dragonrider @ Jul 7 2008, 11:49 AM) [snapback]408627[/snapback]
I seem to remember Jesus seeing a whole lot of grey, like doing good works on the sabbath. The big D between liberal christians and conservative christians, is #1 liberals are willing to admit there is more than one way to express christianity. And the big D #2 is liberal christians emphasize the sermon on the mount and Jesus message to Peter about violence while conservative christians empasize legalism of the Bible and follow the pharasee tradition of the law.
Is that the same Jesus that said "I am the ONLY way to the Father"?
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dragonrider
7/7/08
12:54 PM | QUOTE(AngelFace @ Jul 7 2008, 12:16 PM) [snapback]408640[/snapback]
Wow. Generalize? Broad brush? Showing just a tad bit of bias and prejudice and bigotry? Oh, wait, that's right, liberal christianity would never think of judging or throwing the first stone, right? Tell me, which part of the Sermon on the Mount were you exemplifying as you called ALL CONSERVATIVE CHRISTIANS legalists and Pharisees???? Please read the posts of Scully above and below and if that ain't enough read on from the other evangelicals who post regulerly here its all about legalism and the law of the bible. I was not the one the presumes only conservatives can be christian and christians can only be conservative. I have heard this repeated consistently here and in other posts. |
justplainjoe
7/7/08
1:26 PM | jesus also said to love your neighbor as yourself.
how'd that work out in the last 2000 years?LOL
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graphicsully
7/7/08
2:06 PM | QUOTE(justplainjoe @ Jul 7 2008, 01:26 PM) [snapback]408662[/snapback]
jesus also said to love your neighbor as yourself.
how'd that work out in the last 2000 years?LOL
so what do you do when your neighbor can't see the train heading right for him? |
AngelFace
7/7/08
9:58 PM | QUOTE(dragonrider @ Jul 7 2008, 12:54 PM) [snapback]408653[/snapback]
Please read the posts of Scully above and below and if that ain't enough read on from the other evangelicals who post regulerly here its all about legalism and the law of the bible. I was not the one the presumes only conservatives can be christian and christians can only be conservative. I have heard this repeated consistently here and in other posts.
But you just double-talked through my points, which you failed to answer. How does your broad-brush generalization of ALL CONSERVATIVE CHRISTIANS as legalists and Pharisees square with your assertion that YOU choose to live by the Sermon on the Mount?
Have you met ALL conservative Christians? Um... do I KNOW you?
QUOTE(justplainjoe @ Jul 7 2008, 01:26 PM) [snapback]408662[/snapback]
jesus also said to love your neighbor as yourself.
how'd that work out in the last 2000 years?LOL
You choose to see and loudly proclaim all the sins of Christians and the church. I could spend the next year listing all the ways that Christians and ministries have sacrificed DEMONSTRATING the love of Christ to their neighbors locally, nationally, and internationally. Many disaster victims would say that it has worked out pretty well! Many Christian ministries -- World Relief, World Vision, Samaritan's Purse to name a few -- have been the FIRST on the scene. Would you choose to ignore ALL the good that believers have done just to vent your bias and hatred and contempt? |
dragonrider
7/8/08
1:30 AM | QUOTE(AngelFace @ Jul 7 2008, 09:58 PM) [snapback]408860[/snapback]
But you just double-talked through my points, which you failed to answer. How does your broad-brush generalization of ALL CONSERVATIVE CHRISTIANS as legalists and Pharisees square with your assertion that YOU choose to live by the Sermon on the Mount?
Have you met ALL conservative Christians? Um... do I KNOW you?
You choose to see and loudly proclaim all the sins of Christians and the church. I could spend the next year listing all the ways that Christians and ministries have sacrificed DEMONSTRATING the love of Christ to their neighbors locally, nationally, and internationally. Many disaster victims would say that it has worked out pretty well! Many Christian ministries -- World Relief, World Vision, Samaritan's Purse to name a few -- have been the FIRST on the scene. Would you choose to ignore ALL the good that believers have done just to vent your bias and hatred and contempt? I don't ignore the good conservative christians have done why do you chose to ignore that liberal christians even exist? |
justplainjoe
7/8/08
6:12 AM | QUOTE(AngelFace @ Jul 7 2008, 09:58 PM) [snapback]408860[/snapback]
Would you choose to ignore ALL the good that believers have done just to vent your bias and hatred and contempt?
see what you are doing? criticize george bush and you hate america, that automatically invalidates any legitimate criticism.
all i did was mention that jesus said to love your neighbor as yourself and suddenly i am full of contempt and hatred?
is your faith that weak that it can be shaken like a reed in the wind by the very words of jesus?
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AngelFace
7/8/08
9:55 AM | QUOTE(dragonrider @ Jul 8 2008, 01:30 AM) [snapback]408897[/snapback]
I don't ignore the good conservative christians have done why do you chose to ignore that liberal christians even exist?
First, I have never spoken a negative word about liberal Christians. A Christian is a Christian, which makes anyone who is a disciple of Jesus Christ a brother or sister.
Second, the fact that I even used the term Conservative Christian is because YOU DO and DID. It is YOU who separate us and BASH those with whom you have some disagreement.
Third, you STILL have not addressed my question to you, asked here for the third time. Why are YOU bashing brothers/sisters in Christ, painting "us" with a broad, negative, prejudiced brush? And how do you think your attitude and hostility mesh with your proclaimed Sermon on the Mount guiding principle?
QUOTE(justplainjoe @ Jul 8 2008, 06:12 AM) [snapback]408906[/snapback]
see what you are doing? criticize george bush and you hate america, that automatically invalidates any legitimate criticism.
all i did was mention that jesus said to love your neighbor as yourself and suddenly i am full of contempt and hatred?
is your faith that weak that it can be shaken like a reed in the wind by the very words of jesus?
You also mentioned the past 2000 years as if nothing good had ever come of Jesus ever having walked the earth, and those 2000 years were a wash when it came to Christianity (I've heard Dr. Phil, and I got the reference.)
My faith is fine (most days!), but thank you for your concern.
And my point was simply that it is possible to become so hyper-focused on what is wrong in society, in politics, in Christianity, that all we do is attack, bash, criticize. I object to the broad brush. I object to it when people do it with race, gender, faith, and yes, even politics, although with politics it is always a temptation to go that direction after 8 miserable years.
And how did GWB even come into this???? Please check every post of mine. I am an equal opportunity scorner when it comes to politicians, GWB included!!! |
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