You can’t catch Teh Gay

June 26th, 2008 9:47 am · 55 comments

Via Sullivan, William Saletan at Slate.com peruses a new study on “sexually antagonistic selection in human male homosexuality,” which concludes, bascially, that it’s inborn - and for a reason, too.

Saletan:

It starts with four curious patterns. First, male homosexuality occurs at a low but stable frequency in a wide range of societies. Second, the female relatives of gay men produce children at a higher rate than other women do. Third, among these female relatives, those related to the gay man’s mother produce children at a higher rate than do those related to his father. Fourth, among the man’s male relatives, homosexuality is more common in those related to his mother than in those related to his father.

Can genes account for these patterns? To find out, the authors posit several possible mechanisms and compute their effects over time. They conclude that only one theory fits the data. The theory is called “sexually antagonistic selection.” It holds that a gene can be reproductively harmful to one sex as long as it’s helpful to the other. The gene for male homosexuality persists because it promotes—and is passed down through—high rates of procreation among gay men’s mothers, sisters, and aunts.

So there may indeed be a biological imperative for it. Which makes sense, though it’s no less fascinating.

Gay women aren’t part of the study. But Saletan notes it ought to influence our thinking about gay men in several ways:

First, it implies natural limits to homosexuality. You don’t need to worry that gay teachers or television characters will “convert” hordes of boys. Sexually antagonistic selection is self-limiting and impervious to postnatal cultural factors. The authors’ computations show no scenario in which male homosexuality spreads throughout a population.

Second, by the same token, you can’t culturally eradicate the gay minority. It’s sustained by genetics and natural selection.

Third, if the authors are correct, we’re not really talking about genes for homosexuality. We’re talking about genes for “androphilia,” i.e., attraction to men. The importance of the genes lies in what they do not to men but to women, by increasing reproductive output so powerfully that these women compensate for the reduced output among their male relatives. You can’t isolate gay men as a puzzle or problem anymore. You have to see them as part of a bigger, stronger, enduring phenomenon.

Let the blanket denials begin.

We again go back to the whole idea that people “choose” to be gay. If this study - and don’t kid yourself; there will be more and more like them as time goes on, science will explain this phenomenon - is correct, the only “choice” involved is whether to act on the impulses.

Beyond that, though, is the idea that homosexuality can somehow be imparted - because daddy didn’t love you enough, or some other ridiculous thing. You can’t catch Teh Gay - but insisting that you can is a vital part of the “battle” against homosexuality by the far right; it explains away a lot of things, it provides a convenient excuse for those who are among the culture warriors but themselves experience same-sex yearnings - they can say, “It’s not my fault!” And that may well be true - though not in the manner they think.

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  55 comments  Tags: Homosexuality · Religious conservatism

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dragonrider
6/26/08
12:27 PM
QUOTE(Lancaster Online @ Jun 26 2008, 09:50 AM) [snapback]405240[/snapback]


Post your thoughts and comments about this blog post.
I am sure one of the regulers will deny the veracity of the science or demand some medical treatment to cure the poor homo's in utero.
graphicsully
6/26/08
1:07 PM
QUOTE(dragonrider @ Jun 26 2008, 12:27 PM) [snapback]405299[/snapback]

I am sure one of the regulers will deny the veracity of the science or demand some medical treatment to cure the poor homo's in utero.



so WHEN they prove that all of these urges are "geneticly predetermined" are we going to just turn our heads to people who are more likely to be addicted to harmful substances like crack or cigarettes or suicide? And when they fiind the gene that causes a pedifile to seak out a child are we going to recognize the validity of NAMBLA? I think Jeffrey Dahmer deserves an appology because he was just genetically dispositioned to kill and eat people.... he just couldn't resist the natural instinctive evil that was imbedded into his mom's heritage.

This isn't going to fly, we already know that man is evil.... all of us have to resist it.
dragonrider
6/26/08
1:36 PM
QUOTE(graphicsully @ Jun 26 2008, 01:07 PM) [snapback]405315[/snapback]



so WHEN they prove that all of these urges are "geneticly predetermined" are we going to just turn our heads to people who are more likely to be addicted to harmful substances like crack or cigarettes or suicide? And when they fiind the gene that causes a pedifile to seak out a child are we going to recognize the validity of NAMBLA? I think Jeffrey Dahmer deserves an appology because he was just genetically dispositioned to kill and eat people.... he just couldn't resist the natural instinctive evil that was imbedded into his mom's heritage.

This isn't going to fly, we already know that man is evil.... all of us have to resist it.
Ahhhh right on cue. Feel the christian churchie lifestyle choice love.
Hope
6/26/08
1:50 PM
QUOTE
Third, if the authors are correct, we’re not really talking about genes for homosexuality. We’re talking about genes for “androphilia,” i.e., attraction to men.


So then what accounts for women being attracted to women?

I do believe that you are born gay or straight so there must be something in your chemical and/or biological makeup to make you this way. If they are not talking about a gene for homosexuality then where is the study that tell us about women?
littledutchboy
6/26/08
2:19 PM
The study shows 4 patterns, then jumps to conclusions as to what those patterns mean…...and they call that science?



The study does lend credibility to the theory that hormones may play a role in sexuality. Hormones certainly play a role in becoming pregnant. wink.gif







QUOTE
It holds that a gene can be reproductively harmful to one sex as long as it’s helpful to the other. The gene for male homosexuality persists because it promotes—and is passed down through—high rates of procreation among gay men’s mothers, sisters, and aunts.




Substitute the word hormone for gene ……..see what I mean?

Wonder
6/26/08
2:24 PM
This was not a genetic experiment. It was based up a mathematical construct based upon other mathematical constructs.
rolleyes.gif
****************************************************
Several lines of evidence indicate the existence of genetic factors influencing male homosexuality and bisexuality. In spite of its relatively low frequency, the stable permanence in all human populations of this apparently detrimental trait constitutes a puzzling 'Darwinian paradox'. Furthermore, several studies have pointed out relevant asymmetries in the distribution of both male homosexuality and of female fecundity in the parental lines of homosexual vs. heterosexual males. A number of hypotheses have attempted to give an evolutionary explanation for the long-standing persistence of this trait, and for its asymmetric distribution in family lines; however a satisfactory understanding of the population genetics of male homosexuality is lacking at present. We perform a systematic mathematical analysis of the propagation and equilibrium of the putative genetic factors for male homosexuality in the population, based on the selection equation for one or two diallelic loci and Bayesian statistics for pedigree investigation. We show that only the two-locus genetic model with at least one locus on the X chromosome, and in which gene expression is sexually antagonistic (increasing female fitness but decreasing male fitness), accounts for all known empirical data. Our results help clarify the basic evolutionary dynamics of male homosexuality, establishing this as a clearly ascertained sexually antagonistic human trait.
********
Edit: Furthermore, it is a sex-biased mathematical construct...based upon other mathematical constructs. tongue.gif

littledutchboy
6/26/08
2:31 PM
QUOTE


Second, by the same token, you can’t culturally eradicate the gay minority. It’s sustained by genetics and natural selection.







Culturally eradicate? What does that mean? There are a considerable number of birth abnormalities that are genetic? Still we try to eradicate them.



Bad science and even worse commentary. ……..typical Gil (not so smart) Smart piece.



dragonrider
6/26/08
2:35 PM
QUOTE(graphicsully @ Jun 26 2008, 01:07 PM) [snapback]405315[/snapback]



so WHEN they prove that all of these urges are "geneticly predetermined" are we going to just turn our heads to people who are more likely to be addicted to harmful substances like crack or cigarettes or suicide? And when they fiind the gene that causes a pedifile to seak out a child are we going to recognize the validity of NAMBLA? I think Jeffrey Dahmer deserves an appology because he was just genetically dispositioned to kill and eat people.... he just couldn't resist the natural instinctive evil that was imbedded into his mom's heritage.

This isn't going to fly, we already know that man is evil.... all of us have to resist it.
How do you jump from a relationship between two consenting adults to child rape, and eating people. There just is no comparison

QUOTE(littledutchboy @ Jun 26 2008, 02:31 PM) [snapback]405375[/snapback]




Culturally eradicate? What does that mean? There are a considerable number of birth abnormalities that are genetic? Still we try to eradicate them.

[/size]

[size="3"]Bad science and even worse commentary. ……..typical Gil (not so smart) Smart piece.




So you are saying you want to eradicate (kill )gay people?
graphicsully
6/26/08
2:35 PM
QUOTE(dragonrider @ Jun 26 2008, 01:36 PM) [snapback]405331[/snapback]

Ahhhh right on cue. Feel the christian churchie lifestyle choice love.




I think if the "churchies" used language and name calling in a way to demean a class of people it would be called bigotry at the top of their lungs. Hypocrisy is the most amusing of all liberal traits.
Wonder
6/26/08
2:37 PM
dragonrider. graphicsully and LDB were pointing out that there are other conditions that would have the same type of links to genetic endowment [although also NOT genetic in programming], which are not considered worthy of maintaining for the good of society. Who will draw the line and say one thing is okay because it is genetically linked [although weakly], while another thing is NORMAL because it is weakly genetically linked [as proven by a mathematical construct which was based upon past mathematical constructs and weak philosophical connections].

********

As predictable was night follows day...is dragonrider stooping to name-calling when some weak and laughable writing by Gil Semi is written.

dragonrider
6/26/08
2:47 PM
QUOTE(graphicsully @ Jun 26 2008, 02:35 PM) [snapback]405384[/snapback]




I think if the "churchies" used language and name calling in a way to demean a class of people it would be called bigotry at the top of their lungs. Hypocrisy is the most amusing of all liberal traits.
Actually I am only sarcastically copying a evangelical who uses similer language of homosexual lifestyle choicers. Personally Its ugly but I was making a point maybe I carried the point on too long. Words have meaning and how they are used can be used to hurt or uplift.

QUOTE(Wonder @ Jun 26 2008, 02:37 PM) [snapback]405385[/snapback]
dragonrider. graphicsully and LDB were pointing out that there are other conditions that would have the same type of links to genetic endowment [although also NOT genetic in programming], which are not considered worthy of maintaining for the good of society. Who will draw the line and say one thing is okay because it is genetically linked [although weakly], while another thing is NORMAL because it is weakly genetically linked [as proven by a mathematical construct which was based upon past mathematical constructs and weak philosophical connections].
Comparing homosexuals to child rapists and those who eat human flesh is not a proper comparison. Left handedness might be more appropriate as both have no real negative effect on society Personally I disagree with the supreme court, I think child rapist should recieve the death penalty particulerly Ministers and Priests

Wasn't it you Wonder who referred to gay pride as the homosexual lifestyle choice event or was that Hope. I forget remind me which evangelical it was.

littledutchboy
6/26/08
2:54 PM
Gil left this paragraph out.





QUOTE


But the word consequence suggests a sixth, less happy implication: How would gay men see themselves and be regarded in a society that understood their condition as a side effect of female evolution? Would male androphilia be treated like sickle-cell anemia—the unfortunate cost of a genetic mutation that's beneficial in other people? We medicate sickle-cell anemia. Would we medicate homosexuality?







QUOTE(dragonrider @ Jun 26 2008, 02:47 PM) [snapback]405389[/snapback]
Actually I am only sarcastically copying a evangelical who uses similer language of homosexual lifestyle choicers. Personally Its ugly but I was making a point maybe I carried the point on too long. Words have meaning and how they are used can be used to hurt or uplift.

Comparing homosexuals to child rapists and those who eat human flesh is not a proper comparison. Left handedness might be more appropriate as both have no real negative effect on society Personally I disagree with the supreme court, I think child rapist should recieve the death penalty particulerly Ministers and Priests

Wasn't it you Wonder who referred to gay pride as the homosexual lifestyle choice event or was that Hope. I forget remind me which evangelical it was.





Is homosexuality the act of homosexual sex or a state of mind? Clearly non of us have to act on our impulses, so it is a chose, choosing to act.

Wonder
6/26/08
2:56 PM
QUOTE
Comparing homosexuals to child rapists and those who eat human flesh is not a proper comparison. Left handedness might be more appropriate as both have no real negative effect on society


However, left-handedness is a bit more alligned to a genetic, link than are the examples you cited. But, I unserstand what you mean. I still am considering that hormone theory. That one seems a bit more plausable than does a purely mathematical construct. Since that piece was printed about hormones, I am wondering if there are other things they are studying related to in-utero environment.

Since I do not wish to "broaden my anatomy", I limit the time I read. It is not easy to break away from having your own library of information in your home...just a few finger movements away !!! ohmy.gif
dragonrider
6/26/08
2:59 PM
QUOTE(littledutchboy @ Jun 26 2008, 02:54 PM) [snapback]405394[/snapback]


Is homosexuality the act of homosexual sex or a state of mind? Clearly non of us have to act on our impulses, so it is a chose, choosing to act.

Homosexuality is a state of being not having sex with a person of the same sex does not make you heterosexual. So I fail to see your point.
graphicsully
6/26/08
3:16 PM
QUOTE(dragonrider @ Jun 26 2008, 02:47 PM) [snapback]405389[/snapback]

Actually I am only sarcastically copying a evangelical who uses similer language of homosexual lifestyle choicers. Personally Its ugly but I was making a point maybe I carried the point on too long. Words have meaning and how they are used can be used to hurt or uplift.

Comparing homosexuals to child rapists and those who eat human flesh is not a proper comparison. Left handedness might be more appropriate as both have no real negative effect on society Personally I disagree with the supreme court, I think child rapist should recieve the death penalty particulerly Ministers and Priests

Wasn't it you Wonder who referred to gay pride as the homosexual lifestyle choice event or was that Hope. I forget remind me which evangelical it was.



I'm guessing that was supposed to be a lame attempt at an appology
tugrad
6/26/08
6:36 PM
QUOTE(littledutchboy @ Jun 26 2008, 02:54 PM) [snapback]405394[/snapback]

Is homosexuality the act of homosexual sex or a state of mind? Clearly non of us have to act on our impulses, so it is a chose, choosing to act.



That is an interesting question. Are you heterosexual even when you aren't in the act of sexual intercourse?

I am a lesbian weather of not I am having sex with another woman. It is not all I am, just like being heterosexual is not all of who you are. But it is part of what makes me the person I am. So I guess I would have to say it is both a sexual act and a state of being.

Makita
6/26/08
6:52 PM
When gays choose to act straight they not only hurt themselves but others. Denying who they are and getting married to someone of the opposite sex not only hurts the gays but also the spouse. Imagine the hurt when someone that is gay can no longer live the lie and tells their spouse they are gay and not attracted to them sexually. This is what many gays and straights go through. Why should either go through this because society says men should only be attracted to women and women to men.
Wonder
6/26/08
8:17 PM
QUOTE
Wasn't it you Wonder who referred to gay pride as the homosexual lifestyle choice event or was that Hope. I forget remind me which evangelical it was.
dragonrider. It was I, who referred to the homosexual lifestyle choice event. But, I do not actually know to which definition you refer in regards to "evangelical" so I shall not admit to being that. I am a Christian who believes in the virgin birth and the messengers of God to Mary, Joseph and the wise men and shepherds of the same event. In that sense, I am, indeed, an evengelical Christian. But, I will not admit to your definition of evangelical, since you did not spell it out.



Makita. Living the lie is a funny [here funny = ironic], thing to say in reference to homosexuals, since at this point in time, that is always the truth, whether they live with a male or female. Lesbian is a self-defined term. Homosexual lifestyle choice is more accurate. There is no "Lesbian" outside of a nickname for the female person who lives the homosexual lifestyle [as definined by oneself]. I am not certain about the sexually active or non-active component, except from the Christian view. Non-sexually involved women living together, sharing expenses and even sharing child-rearing responsibilities somehow do not seem to fit the scriptures that speak to the "abomination" stuff. I suppose one can call themselves whatever one choses. I would choose to live the life of a "hermit" some days but not on other days. So, I suppose I have the heart and inclination of a "hermit", but choose to live the life of a social being. So, does that make me a hermit or not?

WeirdScience
6/26/08
8:26 PM
QUOTE(Makita @ Jun 26 2008, 06:52 PM) [snapback]405454[/snapback]
When gays choose to act straight they not only hurt themselves but others. Denying who they are and getting married to someone of the opposite sex not only hurts the gays but also the spouse. Imagine the hurt when someone that is gay can no longer live the lie and tells their spouse they are gay and not attracted to them sexually. This is what many gays and straights go through. Why should either go through this because society says men should only be attracted to women and women to men.


What a bunch of baloney. Check out Narth.com.
dragonrider
6/26/08
9:51 PM
QUOTE(graphicsully @ Jun 26 2008, 03:16 PM) [snapback]405403[/snapback]



I'm guessing that was supposed to be a lame attempt at an appology
Why would I need to apologize to people who compare me to a child rapist and a canibal.

QUOTE(Wonder @ Jun 26 2008, 02:56 PM) [snapback]405399[/snapback]


However, left-handedness is a bit more alligned to a genetic, link than are the examples you cited. But, I unserstand what you mean. I still am considering that hormone theory. That one seems a bit more plausable than does a purely mathematical construct. Since that piece was printed about hormones, I am wondering if there are other things they are studying related to in-utero environment.

Since I do not wish to "broaden my anatomy", I limit the time I read. It is not easy to break away from having your own library of information in your home...just a few finger movements away !!! ohmy.gif
If you accept the premise that homosexuality may be the result of in utero hormonal enviroment then you must conclude that it is not a choice. I no you have not reached that decision just a hypothetical. Then I would follow with Paul's Statement that some can choose to be celibate , and some castrate themselves to be celibate but others are not inclined to be celibate, the same must be true of homosexuals that no all have the disposition to remain celibate their entire life. If it is not a choice and Paul says that not all can remain celibate for life then it follows that God must allow some understanding of the homosexual person who does not chose to be homosexual and can not by disposition choose to remain celibate for life.
tugrad
6/26/08
9:54 PM
QUOTE(dragonrider @ Jun 26 2008, 09:42 PM) [snapback]405480[/snapback]

Why would I need to apologize to people who compare me to a child rapist and a canibal.

You don't need to apologize to them. You are the one owed the apology. Every time they try to make homosexuality analogous to child rape they show their ignorance.
Beth
6/26/08
11:59 PM
QUOTE(tugrad @ Jun 26 2008, 09:54 PM) [snapback]405485[/snapback]

You don't need to apologize to them. You are the one owed the apology. Every time they try to make homosexuality analogous to child rape they show their ignorance.

You don't need to apologize to them! DITTO

...but this is what they have been spoon fed starting in their formative years. Same as what was drilled into me by church and family and other "well meaning people". It is soooo refreshing to start to think on your own. I wish more would try it!! wink.gif

Thank you Tugrad for contributing to the exchange of ideas whether or not others believe and agree 100 %, you put your message out there with out slamming the door on other ideas, whether or not you agree with them 100 % Keep up the dialogue ignoring those who thow out those pat phrases, like those above, so we continue fearing rather than befriending.

It's hard to hate after a bond of friendship is formed.
tugrad
6/27/08
9:31 AM
QUOTE(Beth @ Jun 26 2008, 11:59 PM) [snapback]405504[/snapback]

You don't need to apologize to them! DITTO

...Thank you Tugrad for contributing to the exchange of ideas whether or not others believe and agree 100 %, you put your message out there with out slamming the door on other ideas, whether or not you agree with them 100 % Keep up the dialogue ignoring those who thow out those pat phrases, like those above, so we continue fearing rather than befriending.

It's hard to hate after a bond of friendship is formed.




Thanks, beth! blush.gif

dragonrider
6/27/08
11:32 AM
QUOTE(WeirdScience @ Jun 26 2008, 08:26 PM) [snapback]405462[/snapback]


What a bunch of baloney. Check out Narth.com.
Narth.com an exgay web site. Exgay a totally rejected approach to therapy. What a joke. Why not have Exgay ministries try waterboarding gays they might have more success.
graphicsully
6/27/08
12:11 PM
QUOTE(dragonrider @ Jun 26 2008, 09:51 PM) [snapback]405480[/snapback]

Why would I need to apologize to people who compare me to a child rapist and a canibal.

If you accept the premise that homosexuality may be the result of in utero hormonal enviroment then you must conclude that it is not a choice. I no you have not reached that decision just a hypothetical. Then I would follow with Paul's Statement that some can choose to be celibate , and some castrate themselves to be celibate but others are not inclined to be celibate, the same must be true of homosexuals that no all have the disposition to remain celibate their entire life. If it is not a choice and Paul says that not all can remain celibate for life then it follows that God must allow some understanding of the homosexual person who does not chose to be homosexual and can not by disposition choose to remain celibate for life.



yep, you're right you don't NEED to apologize, certainly not for my sake... but I take offense to liberals thinking that I came to what I believe to be true because I've been "brainwashed". I went to church less than most people I know when I was growing up. I was a dispicable person to say the least. But once I finally grew up and stopped trying to fullfull every desire I had , I started to look inward at what I really needed. I looked hard and honestly for a long time. Nothing filled it, not degrees of knowledge, not sex, not drugs. The only thing I didn't want to turn to was Jesus Christ.... but He was it... I knew it then and I know for sure now. It was the last thing I wanted to admit, but sometimes the truth hurts. I had to deny myself, because myself was the problem. I tried hard and long to justify my life, but justification isn't possible when you know you've been wrong. Saying you're sorry when you degrade another person or people is small potatoes compared to admitting you are not perfect by yourself. Christians know that it isn't easy, that's why they try so hard to tell this lost world that there is help if you just believe.
dragonrider
6/27/08
12:27 PM
QUOTE(graphicsully @ Jun 27 2008, 12:11 PM) [snapback]405696[/snapback]



yep, you're right you don't NEED to apologize, certainly not for my sake... but I take offense to liberals thinking that I came to what I believe to be true because I've been "brainwashed". I went to church less than most people I know when I was growing up. I was a dispicable person to say the least. But once I finally grew up and stopped trying to fullfull every desire I had , I started to look inward at what I really needed. I looked hard and honestly for a long time. Nothing filled it, not degrees of knowledge, not sex, not drugs. The only thing I didn't want to turn to was Jesus Christ.... but He was it... I knew it then and I know for sure now. It was the last thing I wanted to admit, but sometimes the truth hurts. I had to deny myself, because myself was the problem. I tried hard and long to justify my life, but justification isn't possible when you know you've been wrong. Saying you're sorry when you degrade another person or people is small potatoes compared to admitting you are not perfect by yourself. Christians know that it isn't easy, that's why they try so hard to tell this lost world that there is help if you just believe.
Why is it so many on your side of the argument assume that becuase I am liberal and gay that I am not christian. I have been attending church since I was 20, thirtythree years ago. I found my christianity a great comfort when I finally came out gay and was rejected by the world ,because I knew that no matter if I lost the whole world I still have the love of God. I suggest reading Stranger at the Gate, or Coming out, An Act of Love.
Scout
6/27/08
1:27 PM
QUOTE(dragonrider @ Jun 27 2008, 12:27 PM) [snapback]405704[/snapback]
Why is it so many on your side of the argument assume that becuase I am liberal and gay that I am not christian. I have been attending church since I was 20, thirtythree years ago. I found my christianity a great comfort when I finally came out gay and was rejected by the world ,because I knew that no matter if I lost the whole world I still have the love of God. I suggest reading Stranger at the Gate, or Coming out, An Act of Love.


An interesting note on this subject, from Saturdays Pride event; there was a UCC minister whose church had a booth at the event. Some of the protestors saw her standing by the gate (acting at that time as a Silent Witness), and accused her of being a false minister, because no real minister would participate in something so unholy {hmmm what does that say about Catholic Priests who commit pedophilia for 20 years before being "outted" ... does that mean all the baptisms, 1st communions, weddings and Last Rites they performed during that time are invalid, or do they still get to be real ministers?? oh wait ... sorry, I digress}. What right does anyone have to decide that she is a false minister?

Here again is where labels put my knickers in a knot; guess what? Gays can be, and are: Christian (Baptist, Mormon, UCC, Brethren, Presbyterian, etc), Jewish, Agnostic, Pagan, Atheist, etc. Those who support gays can be, and are Christian (Baptist, Mormon, UCC, Brethren, Presbyterian, etc), Jewish, Agnostic, Pagan, Atheist, etc. Someone who is militantly anti-abortion can be a gay rights supportive moderate, and someone who thinks gays should be swept off the face of the planet can be a pro-choice liberal.

Saying I disagree with your interpretation of the Bible does not mean that I do not believe in the Bible, so please do not assume that because I am gay that I am not a Christian.

tugrad
6/27/08
1:33 PM
QUOTE(graphicsully @ Jun 27 2008, 12:11 PM) [snapback]405696[/snapback]

yep, you're right you don't NEED to apologize, certainly not for my sake... but I take offense to liberals thinking that I came to what I believe to be true because I've been "brainwashed". I went to church less than most people I know when I was growing up. I was a dispicable person to say the least. But once I finally grew up and stopped trying to fullfull every desire I had , I started to look inward at what I really needed. I looked hard and honestly for a long time. Nothing filled it, not degrees of knowledge, not sex, not drugs. The only thing I didn't want to turn to was Jesus Christ.... but He was it... I knew it then and I know for sure now. It was the last thing I wanted to admit, but sometimes the truth hurts. I had to deny myself, because myself was the problem. I tried hard and long to justify my life, but justification isn't possible when you know you've been wrong. Saying you're sorry when you degrade another person or people is small potatoes compared to admitting you are not perfect by yourself. Christians know that it isn't easy, that's why they try so hard to tell this lost world that there is help if you just believe.

But accepting Jesus isn't the only way to find this in yourself. I am truly glad you have found what makes you whole. My problem is that many Christians have the attitude that one can not be whole without Jesus. They seem to find it difficult or even impossible to understand there are many people who are living good, whole lives being true to themselves without believing that Jesus is the son of God.

dragonrider
6/27/08
1:39 PM
QUOTE(Scout @ Jun 27 2008, 01:27 PM) [snapback]405738[/snapback]


An interesting note on this subject, from Saturdays Pride event; there was a UCC minister whose church had a booth at the event. Some of the protestors saw her standing by the gate (acting at that time as a Silent Witness), and accused her of being a false minister, because no real minister would participate in something so unholy {hmmm what does that say about Catholic Priests who commit pedophilia for 20 years before being "outted" ... does that mean all the baptisms, 1st communions, weddings and Last Rites they performed during that time are invalid, or do they still get to be real ministers?? oh wait ... sorry, I digress}. What right does anyone have to decide that she is a false minister?

Here again is where labels put my knickers in a knot; guess what? Gays can be, and are: Christian (Baptist, Mormon, UCC, Brethren, Presbyterian, etc), Jewish, Agnostic, Pagan, Atheist, etc. Those who support gays can be, and are Christian (Baptist, Mormon, UCC, Brethren, Presbyterian, etc), Jewish, Agnostic, Pagan, Atheist, etc. Someone who is militantly anti-abortion can be a gay rights supportive moderate, and someone who thinks gays should be swept off the face of the planet can be a pro-choice liberal.

Saying I disagree with your interpretation of the Bible does not mean that I do not believe in the Bible, so please do not assume that because I am gay that I am not a Christian.

That was my minister and I am so proud of her!
Hope
6/27/08
2:17 PM
QUOTE(tugrad @ Jun 27 2008, 01:33 PM) [snapback]405741[/snapback]

They seem to find it difficult or even impossible to understand there are many people who are living good, whole lives being true to themselves without believing that Jesus is the son of God.


I am Catholic yet I can't imagine a God who would not welcome into Heaven, people like City and Why? who are so selfless in their volunteer efforts even though Jews do not believe Jesus is the son of God.

I do think there is a difference between homosexuality and homosexual sex. I have stated many times that I believe homosexuality is not a sin, acting on it and having homosexual sex is a sin. I liken it to pre-marital sex. Most teenagers have sexual feelings, which is very normal, but acting on those feelings without marriage is a sin. This is what I was taught and this is what I believe, however; I don't feel it's up to me (or anyone else for that matter) to point out someone else's sins, unless they ask my opinion.
tugrad
6/27/08
2:26 PM
QUOTE(Hope @ Jun 27 2008, 02:17 PM) [snapback]405794[/snapback]

I am Catholic yet I can't imagine a God who would not welcome into Heaven, people like City and Why? who are so selfless in their volunteer efforts even though Jews do not believe Jesus is the son of God.

I do think there is a difference between homosexuality and homosexual sex. I have stated many times that I believe homosexuality is not a sin, acting on it and having homosexual sex is a sin. I liken it to pre-marital sex. Most teenagers have sexual feelings, which is very normal, but acting on those feelings without marriage is a sin. This is what I was taught and this is what I believe, however; I don't feel it's up to me (or anyone else for that matter) to point out someone else's sins, unless they ask my opinion.

My partner and I were both raised Catholic. Our problem with the church's doctrine that states the sin is not homosexuality but homosexual sex acts is that it essentially tells gays and lesbians that they are to spend their lives alone, without an intimate partner.

I understand that for many Catholics the idea goes back to and is similar to the concept of pre-marital sex. However, in most states gays and lesbians are not legally allowed to marry and even if they were the Catholic church does not recognize same-sex marriage. So essential the Catholic church gets to feel good about not condemning gays for being gay while still condemning them to a life devoid of intimacy.

That is exactly why we let the church. We felt the policy treats gays as second class members. But it did explain (at least to us) why so many nuns seem to be lesbians!
dragonrider
6/27/08
2:35 PM
QUOTE(tugrad @ Jun 27 2008, 02:26 PM) [snapback]405798[/snapback]

My partner and I were both raised Catholic. Our problem with the church's doctrine that states the sin is not homosexuality but homosexual sex acts is that it essentially tells gays and lesbians that they are to spend their lives alone, without an intimate partner.

I understand that for many Catholics the idea goes back to and is similar to the concept of pre-marital sex. However, in most states gays and lesbians are not legally allowed to marry and even if they were the Catholic church does not recognize same-sex marriage. So essential the Catholic church gets to feel good about not condemning gays for being gay while still condemning them to a life devoid of intimacy.

That is exactly why we let the church. We felt the policy treats gays as second class members. But it did explain (at least to us) why so many nuns seem to be lesbians!
Which is why I stated earlier that Paul also said that not everyone has the disposition to remain celebite for life. If homosexuality is not a sin and as Paul says not everyone is predisposed to a celebite lifestyle then homosexual sex must also not be a sin.
Hope
6/27/08
2:40 PM
QUOTE(tugrad @ Jun 27 2008, 02:26 PM) [snapback]405798[/snapback]

My partner and I were both raised Catholic. Our problem with the church's doctrine that states the sin is not homosexuality but homosexual sex acts is that it essentially tells gays and lesbians that they are to spend their lives alone, without an intimate partner.

I understand that for many Catholics the idea goes back to and is similar to the concept of prep-marital sex. However, in most states gays and lesbians are not legally allowed to marry and even if they were the Catholic church does not recognize same-sex marriage. So essential the Catholic church gets to feel good about not condemning gays for being gay while still condemning them to a life devoid of intimacy.

That is exactly why we let the church. We felt the policy treats gays as second class members. But it did explain (at least to us) why so many nuns seem to be lesbians!

Many gay/lesbian people think that the church is singling them out or condeming them to a life devoid of intimacy but that is just not the case, IMO. Priests and Nuns don't marry and remain celibate yet they live rich, full lives. You can't change God's laws to suit yourself, you are supposed to change yourself to follow his laws. I'm not saying that gays are supposed to go straight, I don't believe that's possible. I'm saying that gays are supposed to remain celibate rather than break God's law.
tugrad
6/27/08
2:45 PM
QUOTE(Hope @ Jun 27 2008, 02:40 PM) [snapback]405812[/snapback]

Many gay/lesbian people think that the church is singling them out or condeming them to a life devoid of intimacy but that is just not the case, IMO. Priests and Nuns don't marry and remain celibate yet they live rich, full lives. You can't change God's laws to suit yourself, you are supposed to change yourself to follow his laws. I'm not saying that gays are supposed to go straight, I don't believe that's possible. I'm saying that gays are supposed to remain celibate rather than break God's law.

I understand that is the policy of the Catholic church and it is also your belief. However, it is not mine. After much soul searching and pain I have realized that IMO the church is wrong. Gays who are sexually active in loving committed relationships are no more or less sinful than straight couples who are sexually active in loving committed relationships. The only problem is that current laws prevent gays from entering in to legal marriages.

I think it would be difficult for a straight person to fully understand the implications of the Catholic Church's policy. But I still respect that this is the stance of the church. I simply don't feel a need to live my life according to a doctrine I do not believe.
dragonrider
6/27/08
2:47 PM
QUOTE(Hope @ Jun 27 2008, 02:40 PM) [snapback]405812[/snapback]

Many gay/lesbian people think that the church is singling them out or condeming them to a life devoid of intimacy but that is just not the case, IMO. Priests and Nuns don't marry and remain celibate yet they live rich, full lives. You can't change God's laws to suit yourself, you are supposed to change yourself to follow his laws. I'm not saying that gays are supposed to go straight, I don't believe that's possible. I'm saying that gays are supposed to remain celibate rather than break God's law.
But Paul says not all are predisposed to remain celibate for life and God understands that.

Apparently not all priests and nuns can remain celibate and I question you define a rich full life that does not include the romantic love of another. Most people feel the need for a romantic other to feel they are living a rich full life.

Hope
6/27/08
3:12 PM
QUOTE(dragonrider @ Jun 27 2008, 02:47 PM) [snapback]405820[/snapback]

But Paul says not all are predisposed to remain celibate for life and God understands that.

Apparently not all priests and nuns can remain celibate and I question you define a rich full life that does not include the romantic love of another. Most people feel the need for a romantic other to feel they are living a rich full life.


We are ALL human and therefore prone to sin. Not all priests and nuns remain celibate but that is the vow that they take. Just because you and I want to have romantic love in our lives, does not mean that those who do not have it are unfullfilled. I have a neighbor who is a single woman in her mid 30's. She is one of the happiest people that I know. She devotes her life to her church and her family, especially nieces and nephews. She often says how blessed she feels to be able to share her talents through mission work and the like. Last year she had a tumor removed and had to wait weeks to find out if it was malignant. She told me that she had lived a full life already and if the tumor turned out to be malignant she was ready to meet God face to face. The tumor was benign, which she was grateful for, but she was already at peace before knowing it.
Rural Conservative
6/27/08
4:38 PM
Hope, Your last several posts in this topic have been well thought out and well reasoned. I can't really find anything in them that I disagree with. Having tendencies or urges and acting upon them, are two different things.

Dragon, the apostle Paul also spoke against homosexual acts (read Romans 1), as being unnatural and degrading. In Galatians 6:19-21 (NIV), he wrote:

QUOTE

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.


He then writes in vv 22-26

QUOTE

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.


Homosexual sex is a type of sexual immorality, like it or not. Before you get your knickers in a twist, we are all in the same boat and it is sinking without Jesus Christ to plug the holes. I do not claim that I am free from sin; however, I cite what the Apostle John wrote in 1 John 1:8-10

QUOTE

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.


If caring about someone enough to tell them the truth is hatred or bigotry, well, I guess in that twisted mindset, I must be guilty.

Romans 3:21-26
QUOTE

But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.


Wow...Romans is a fun read...I think I'll go read some more of it now. It's been a while since I've really studied that book...Where did my New Living Translation go?

Before I go, consider Romans 6:1-4:


**Wanders off in search of his NLT**

*footnote: All scripture texts in this post taken from the New International Version
dragonrider
6/27/08
4:49 PM
QUOTE(Hope @ Jun 27 2008, 03:12 PM) [snapback]405831[/snapback]


We are ALL human and therefore prone to sin. Not all priests and nuns remain celibate but that is the vow that they take. Just because you and I want to have romantic love in our lives, does not mean that those who do not have it are unfullfilled. I have a neighbor who is a single woman in her mid 30's. She is one of the happiest people that I know. She devotes her life to her church and her family, especially nieces and nephews. She often says how blessed she feels to be able to share her talents through mission work and the like. Last year she had a tumor removed and had to wait weeks to find out if it was malignant. She told me that she had lived a full life already and if the tumor turned out to be malignant she was ready to meet God face to face. The tumor was benign, which she was grateful for, but she was already at peace before knowing it.
As Paul said some can remain celibate and that is a blessing unto them but not all can remain celibate this is not me this is Paul. I have heard many minisiters in the conservative venue speak of sexuality as a gift from God. For some celibacy is also a gift from God I agree with you on that But there are those who are homosexual for whom celibacy is not a gift nor a full life and I feel Paul spoke to those as well as heterosexuals

QUOTE(Rural Conservative @ Jun 27 2008, 04:38 PM) [snapback]405853[/snapback]
Hope, Your last several posts in this topic have been well thought out and well reasoned. I can't really find anything in them that I disagree with. Having tendencies or urges and acting upon them, are two different things.

Dragon, the apostle Paul also spoke against homosexual acts (read Romans 1), as being unnatural and degrading. In Galatians 6:19-21 (NIV), he wrote:



He then writes in vv 22-26



Homosexual sex is a type of sexual immorality, like it or not. Before you get your knickers in a twist, we are all in the same boat and it is sinking without Jesus Christ to plug the holes. I do not claim that I am free from sin; however, I cite what the Apostle John wrote in 1 John 1:8-10



If caring about someone enough to tell them the truth is hatred or bigotry, well, I guess in that twisted mindset, I must be guilty.

Romans 3:21-26


Wow...Romans is a fun read...I think I'll go read some more of it now. It's been a while since I've really studied that book...Where did my New Living Translation go?

Before I go, consider Romans 6:1-4:


**Wanders off in search of his NLT**

*footnote: All scripture texts in this post taken from the New International Version
I don;t see anything that says homosexual persons involved in homosexual acts in those versus you cited.
Makita
6/27/08
6:15 PM
So if no one has $ex with the exception of procreating there would be no problem with the gays and straights.I love this area!!!!
Wonder
6/27/08
7:57 PM
Dragonrider. You keep quoting St. Paul. But, it does not mean homosexuality is okay. If you read the other scriptures you would know it fits those who leave the priesthood and marry and raise a family. I know single people who do not have affairs. They have many friends and a full life. There are also many married couples who, for one reason or another, do not have intimate relations. If their spouse cannot be intimate for some reason [health reasons], they do not run out and have an affair. There is self-control happening all over the place.

QUOTE
Hope wrote:
I do think there is a difference between homosexuality and homosexual sex. I have stated many times that I believe homosexuality is not a sin, acting on it and having homosexual sex is a sin. I liken it to pre-marital sex. Most teenagers have sexual feelings, which is very normal, but acting on those feelings without marriage is a sin. This is what I was taught and this is what I believe, however; I don't feel it's up to me (or anyone else for that matter) to point out someone else's sins, unless they ask my opinion.

This is my position, also....except that I believe [still at this point in time], that homosexuality is a choice. So, if one leaves the church because they want to lead an alternate lifestyle, not approved by the church, then they choose to live in sin. That, also, is their choice.

You cannot be Christian without Jesus Christ. I, also, was not brainwashed. There were relatives who tried, but there were plenty of other relatives who were not into "my way or the highway". I was raised by my parents, but also, the "village of my extended family". I never felt that anyone would make the final decision for me but me, myself.
dragonrider
6/27/08
8:10 PM
QUOTE(Wonder @ Jun 27 2008, 07:57 PM) [snapback]405880[/snapback]
Dragonrider. You keep quoting St. Paul. But, it does not mean homosexuality is okay. If you read the other scriptures you would know it fits those who leave the priesthood and marry and raise a family. I know single people who do not have affairs. They have many friends and a full life. There are also many married couples who, for one reason or another, do not have intimate relations. If their spouse cannot be intimate for some reason [health reasons], they do not run out and have an affair. There is self-control happening all over the place.

This is my position, also....except that I believe [still at this point in time], that homosexuality is a choice. So, if one leaves the church because they want to lead an alternate lifestyle, not approved by the church, then they choose to live in sin. That, also, is their choice.

You cannot be Christian without Jesus Christ. I, also, was not brainwashed. There were relatives who tried, but there were plenty of other relatives who were not into "my way or the highway". I was raised by my parents, but also, the "village of my extended family". I never felt that anyone would make the final decision for me but me, myself.
Praise God for those who live an altenative lifestyle and are part of the body of Christ. Amen
Rural Conservative
6/27/08
9:32 PM
QUOTE(dragonrider @ Jun 27 2008, 04:49 PM) [snapback]405854[/snapback]


I don;t see anything that says homosexual persons involved in homosexual acts in those versus you cited.


Read Romans 1, starting around verse 20. The word "homosexual" does not appear, but the apostle uses other words that are just as indicative. I had suggested you read Romans 1, then quoted another passage as well. The robot thingy wouldn't let me post all that I originally wanted to and I hate taking verses out of context (one of the first rules of Bible Study, keep everything in context), so I had to cut some of the verses out and just post the references.
dragonrider
6/27/08
9:37 PM
Further on the topic above , you state that Paul was talking about persons leaving the preisthood to marry. There was no priest hood. Rabbi's were and are allowed to marry. Prohibition of priest to marry did not come until centuries after Paul. So your interpretation makes no sense Wonder. Qu'elle Suprise

QUOTE(Rural Conservative @ Jun 27 2008, 09:32 PM) [snapback]405889[/snapback]


Read Romans 1, starting around verse 20. The word "homosexual" does not appear, but the apostle uses other words that are just as indicative. I had suggested you read Romans 1, then quoted another passage as well. The robot thingy wouldn't let me post all that I originally wanted to and I hate taking verses out of context (one of the first rules of Bible Study, keep everything in context), so I had to cut some of the verses out and just post the references.
I see nothing that says homosexual or is indicative of homosexual exept in your imagination or interpretation. I am glad you use the proper apostle and not saint as only catholics beleive in saints or a hierarchy in heaven.
tugrad
6/27/08
9:38 PM
QUOTE(Rural Conservative @ Jun 27 2008, 09:32 PM) [snapback]405889[/snapback]

Read Romans 1, starting around verse 20. The word "homosexual" does not appear, but the apostle uses other words that are just as indicative. I had suggested you read Romans 1, then quoted another passage as well. The robot thingy wouldn't let me post all that I originally wanted to and I hate taking verses out of context (one of the first rules of Bible Study, keep everything in context), so I had to cut some of the verses out and just post the references.

This is all fine and dandy but not everyone is a Christian. I do not consider how I live my life to be a sin. It does not interfere with my relationship with the God in which I believe.

Your posts are exactly why I can problems with most Christians. They seem to think it is their way or no way.
Rural Conservative
6/27/08
9:56 PM
QUOTE(dragonrider @ Jun 27 2008, 09:37 PM) [snapback]405891[/snapback]

I see nothing that says homosexual or is indicative of homosexual exept in your imagination or interpretation. I am glad you use the proper apostle and not saint as only catholics beleive in saints or a hierarchy in heaven.


QUOTE

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. 21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.




Check the highlighted verses (vv 26 and 27) It seems pretty indicative of homosexual sex...women with women, men with men.

As for not calling the Apostle Paul a saint, technically, he was a saint, as are all who are sanctified through the blood of Christ, however, I do not call him "Saint Paul" as I was not raised in the Roman Catholic Church or the Lutheran Church, or any other denomination that uses that terminology. I actually grew up attending a little Baptist Church on top of a rocky outcropping in the Berkshire mountains of Massachusetts. It's actually quite an idylic location. Very pretty. I've sketched it once or twice but never painted it since I never had my paints with me when I was up on the hill. But now I digress...I guess I'm just a little nostalgic for home...

And Tug, While I do believe that there is only one way to salvation, I respect the right of others to believe what they wish; however, I thought this was a place for the exchange of ideas, and we seem to be doing that. Do you have a problem with the free exchange of ideas, or do you believe your way is the only way and no one else should air their opinions?
dragonrider
6/27/08
10:01 PM
QUOTE(Rural Conservative @ Jun 27 2008, 09:56 PM) [snapback]405897[/snapback]






Check the highlighted verses (vv 26 and 27) It seems pretty indicative of homosexual sex...women with women, men with men.

As for not calling the Apostle Paul a saint, technically, he was a saint, as are all who are sanctified through the blood of Christ, however, I do not call him "Saint Paul" as I was not raised in the Roman Catholic Church or the Lutheran Church, or any other denomination that uses that terminology. I actually grew up attending a little Baptist Church on top of a rocky outcropping in the Berkshire mountains of Massachusetts. It's actually quite an idylic location. Very pretty. I've sketched it once or twice but never painted it since I never had my paints with me when I was up on the hill. But now I digress...I guess I'm just a little nostalgic for home...

And Tug, While I do believe that there is only one way to salvation, I respect the right of others to believe what they wish; however, I thought this was a place for the exchange of ideas, and we seem to be doing that. Do you have a problem with the free exchange of ideas, or do you believe your way is the only way and no one else should air their opinions?
I grew up in a small Methodist Church in Homewood Pa, the church was under a bridge and was served by a minister shared with two other Methodist churches. My Family were original settlers of this area settling on a George Washington land grant. My forefathers names can be found on a bridge they desined and built.
Rural Conservative
6/27/08
10:14 PM
QUOTE(dragonrider @ Jun 27 2008, 10:01 PM) [snapback]405898[/snapback]
I grew up in a small Methodist Church in Homewood Pa, the church was under a bridge and was served by a minister shared with two other Methodist churches. My Family were original settlers of this area settling on a George Washington land grant. My forefathers names can be found on a bridge they desined and built.



OOOH...Sounds idylic. I love country church buildings...I've been wanting for several years to go around Lancaster county, then possibly to surrounding counties, taking pictures and compiling small histories of all the little church buildings around. Possibly for print, but more likely just for my own benefit...at least at first. I love the look of the red stone churches that I've seen here and there accross the county. There's one that's really beautiful up on 501 just past Brickerville.

Sure, the cathedrals of Europe are breathtaking, but to me, nothing beats the quaint appeal of the architecture of a small country church.


QUOTE(dragonrider @ Jun 27 2008, 10:01 PM) [snapback]405898[/snapback]
I grew up in a small Methodist Church in Homewood Pa, the church was under a bridge and was served by a minister shared with two other Methodist churches. My Family were original settlers of this area settling on a George Washington land grant. My forefathers names can be found on a bridge they desined and built.


that reminds me, land upon which the Church I grew up attending was built was set aside by King George (I think) prior to the revolution and was to be used for a church, a school and a burial ground. There was also a whale oil chandalier hanging in the building. Very similar historical origins. smile.gif

The building wasn't original though. I think it was the third structure to have been built on that location. The one room school building was still there the last I knew and there were some very interesting gravestones in the cemetary many of them dating back 250 years or so.
tugrad
6/27/08
10:32 PM
QUOTE(Rural Conservative @ Jun 27 2008, 09:56 PM) [snapback]405897[/snapback]



And Tug, While I do believe that there is only one way to salvation, I respect the right of others to believe what they wish; however, I thought this was a place for the exchange of ideas, and we seem to be doing that. Do you have a problem with the free exchange of ideas, or do you believe your way is the only way and no one else should air their opinions?

I don't have a problem with the free exchange of ideas. I do have a problem with being called immoral and being told I am going to hell. Too often those posting that homosexuality is wrong fail to add IMO or according to my belief system.
Rural Conservative
6/27/08
10:37 PM
QUOTE(tugrad @ Jun 27 2008, 10:32 PM) [snapback]405903[/snapback]

I don't have a problem with the free exchange of ideas. I do have a problem with being called immoral and being told I am going to hell. Too often those posting that homosexuality is wrong fail to add IMO or according to my belief system.


While I see your point, why should it be necessary for someone to state the obvious. If someone is writing a post on a forum that is used for the airing of opinions, one would assume that...well, they are airing their opinions.

Additionally, I am fairly certain that I have never written the word "hell" on this forum, nor have I indicated that any particular person is going there, since I have no way of knowing that.

tugrad
6/27/08
10:41 PM
I'm watching the Brokeback mountain on network TV. First time I've seen the movie. It is sad how many lives have been ruined by societies need to tell gays they are not normal. Lives ruined by the need to force gay people to "fit in".
dragonrider
6/27/08
11:14 PM
QUOTE(Rural Conservative @ Jun 27 2008, 10:14 PM) [snapback]405899[/snapback]



OOOH...Sounds idylic. I love country church buildings...I've been wanting for several years to go around Lancaster county, then possibly to surrounding counties, taking pictures and compiling small histories of all the little church buildings around. Possibly for print, but more likely just for my own benefit...at least at first. I love the look of the red stone churches that I've seen here and there accross the county. There's one that's really beautiful up on 501 just past Brickerville.

Sure, the cathedrals of Europe are breathtaking, but to me, nothing beats the quaint appeal of the architecture of a small country church.




that reminds me, land upon which the Church I grew up attending was built was set aside by King George (I think) prior to the revolution and was to be used for a church, a school and a burial ground. There was also a whale oil chandalier hanging in the building. Very similar historical origins. smile.gif

The building wasn't original though. I think it was the third structure to have been built on that location. The one room school building was still there the last I knew and there were some very interesting gravestones in the cemetary many of them dating back 250 years or so.
My grandmother on my fathers side was a teacher in a one room school house until she got married and had to quit teaching. My Great Grandfather kept a diary of everyday life on the farm. Was very interesting to read. You could see the tear stains in the diary on the day his son died of a heart attack. Traditions we have lost and are so valuable.
WeirdScience
6/28/08
9:22 AM
QUOTE(dragonrider @ Jun 27 2008, 11:32 AM) [snapback]405675[/snapback]
Narth.com an exgay web site. Exgay a totally rejected approach to therapy. What a joke. Why not have Exgay ministries try waterboarding gays they might have more success.


You might be onto something.
littledutchboy
6/28/08
9:49 AM
QUOTE(tugrad @ Jun 27 2008, 10:41 PM) [snapback]405906[/snapback]
I'm watching the Brokeback mountain on network TV. First time I've seen the movie. It is sad how many lives have been ruined by societies need to tell gays they are not normal. Lives ruined by the need to force gay people to "fit in".




I got something entirely different from the movie; Perhaps lives would not have been screwed up if they hadn't gotten drunk and if the older man hadn't forces himself on the younger man. I use the word forced loosely.




PS the movie should not have been on network TV


dragonrider
6/28/08
4:51 PM
QUOTE(littledutchboy @ Jun 28 2008, 09:49 AM) [snapback]405990[/snapback]




I got something entirely different from the movie; Perhaps lives would not have been screwed up if they hadn't gotten drunk and if the older man hadn't forces himself on the younger man. I use the word forced loosely.




PS the movie should not have been on network TV


Must have been hard for you to watch the pain that the homoxexual man caused to his family becuase he married a woman even though he was homosexual. So much better if he could have married a man then he would never have caused his wife pain and suffering and he would have been happy as well. I see why you would not want all that sadness on network tv. Better to have Happy Days reruns.
Livandletlive2
6/28/08
10:36 PM
QUOTE(littledutchboy @ Jun 28 2008, 09:49 AM) [snapback]405990[/snapback]




I got something entirely different from the movie; Perhaps lives would not have been screwed up if they hadn't gotten drunk and if the older man hadn't forces himself on the younger man. I use the word forced loosely.




PS the movie should not have been on network TV






i dont know , looks to me like they were having a good time ! smile.gif

one mans pain anothers pleasure , lol eeeeeewwwwwwwwwwww did i say that ? LOL

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