Obama vs. Dobson

June 24th, 2008 9:26 am · 26 comments

Good, good

“Even if we did have only Christians in our midst, if we expelled every non-Christian from the United States of America, whose Christianity would we teach in the schools?” Obama said. “Would we go with James Dobson’s or Al Sharpton’s?” referring to the civil rights leader.

…and then Obama goes on to cite some of the other admonitions in the Old Testament against things like eating shellfish - admonitions which are about as numerous as the anti-homosexual stuff - and wonders, why don’t the fundies cite those laws as vocally as they do the men-shouldn’t-lie-with-men-it’s-an-abomination stuff?

Dobson has the boilerplate answer:

Dobson and Minnery accused Obama of wrongly equating Old Testament texts and dietary codes that no longer apply to Jesus’ teachings in the New Testament.

“I think he’s deliberately distorting the traditional understanding of the Bible to fit his own worldview, his own confused theology,” Dobson said.

“… He is dragging biblical understanding through the gutter.”

But my question is this, and maybe Helen or Pastor Dan can answer it:

Where in the New Testament does Jesus discuss homosexuality?

That’s a loaded question because I’m almost positive the answer is “nowhere” - although I’m certain there’s some explanation that he says these laws must be upheld vs. those laws, etc.

But it’s always seemed to me that if you’re going to be a Biblical literalist you’ve also got to be a bit of a mental contortionist as well. THIS BOOK IS TO BE INTERPRETED LITERALLY! Except, you know, this or that Old Testament passage which we are subsequently told is inoperative.

Update: Ouch, Pastor Dan is all over Dobson like white on rice:

You took the bait, hook, line, and sinker.

Because were you not such a bigoted, ignorant, miserable twit, you would have understood that Jesus said exactly nothing about abortion or homosexuality while your friends and colleagues have had plenty to say about Leviticus. Furthermore, you would have understood that without the Levitical code, there would be no objection to homosexuality in the Bible. It’s all built off the priestly code, and if one part of that code can be said to no longer apply, then all of it is provisional.

Except when it isn’t. Sure is easier to be an agnostic sometimes.

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  26 comments  Tags: Obama · Religious conservatism

There are currently 26 comments on this blog post
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tugrad
6/24/08
9:46 AM
Gil, this is exactly what many of us have been debating for years. I have never received a satisfactory answer to the question of how it is decided which of the old testament laws to follow and which to disregard.
podunk
6/24/08
10:19 AM
That is because you do not like the answer. Gil's question has been answered many, many times on these very message boards.

First off, Jesus did not discuss many topics. Does that make them okay or not sinful?

Second, Jesus said in Matthew 19:
4"Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,'5and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? 6So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."

Third, Jesus said in Matthew 15:
10Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen and understand. 11What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.' "

17"Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.' 19For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.' "

tugrad
6/24/08
10:21 AM
QUOTE(podunk @ Jun 24 2008, 10:19 AM) [snapback]404517[/snapback]
That is because you do not like the answer. Gil's question has been answered many, many times on these very message boards.

First off, Jesus did not discuss many topics. Does that make them okay or not sinful?

Second, Jesus said in Matthew 19:
4"Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,'5and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? 6So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."

Third, Jesus said in Matthew 15:
10Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen and understand. 11What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.' "

17"Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.' 19For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.' "





Jesus, really screwed up with the "eating with unwashed hands deal" I guess that is because this was written before science had an understanding of germs.

podunk
6/24/08
10:38 AM
I think you missed the point entirely. Explains why you have never received a 'satisfactory' answer.
dragonrider
6/24/08
10:48 AM
Dozens of different denominations and some denominations split over how the bible is to be read and interpreted but everyone of them insisting that the bible is inerrant and they have the true understanding of the infallible word. The truth is the bible was written by human men trying to understand the message of God and Jesus and at time failing.
podunk
6/24/08
10:55 AM
The main reason people call it errant is because they don't like what it says. They don't want it to be true. Otherwise they would need to change or live up to what the Bible says.

The Bible has been researched, cross-checked, analyzed more then any other written word in history. It has sold more copies then any other book in history. You would be surprised as to how accurate and detailed it really is. It has held up to a lot of scrutiny over time.

I will give you the 'interpretation' of the passages is what can be debated. However, most things are really quite clear when you put aside personal feelings or agendas.
Goldilocks
6/24/08
10:56 AM


Biblical laws aside. On this morning's program, Dobson addressed the Obama speech comparing Dobson with Sharpton, among other things. I ususally do not listen to FOF, but went into their website and listened after I saw Gil's blog

LOL…Obama’s statements concerning Dobson will cost him a few million votes, that is one thing for sure.






mam0412
6/24/08
11:02 AM
QUOTE(podunk @ Jun 24 2008, 10:55 AM) [snapback]404531[/snapback]
The Bible has been researched, cross-checked, analyzed more then any other written word in history. It has sold more copies then any other book in history. You would be surprised as to how accurate and detailed it really is. It has held up to a lot of scrutiny over time.


Seems to me that the only true way to check the accuracy of the Bible would be to check with God. Was that done?
justplainjoe
6/24/08
11:24 AM
QUOTE(Goldilocks @ Jun 24 2008, 10:56 AM) [snapback]404533[/snapback]





LOL…Obama's statements concerning Dobson will cost him a few million votes, that is one thing for sure.








you mean those millions of dobson followers who were going to vote for obama but since obama confronted dobson they will not?LOL

podunk
6/24/08
11:33 AM
QUOTE
Seems to me that the only true way to check the accuracy of the Bible would be to check with God. Was that done?

Many people are taught to do that each and every time they read the Bible. Pray for understanding. Read. Meditate on the reading.
justplainjoe
6/24/08
11:46 AM
QUOTE(Goldilocks @ Jun 24 2008, 10:56 AM) [snapback]404533[/snapback]


Biblical laws aside. On this morning's program, Dobson addressed the Obama speech comparing Dobson with Sharpton, among other things. I ususally do not listen to FOF, but went into their website and listened after I saw Gil's blog

LOL…Obama's statements concerning Dobson will cost him a few million votes, that is one thing for sure.








there is the problem yet you cannot see it. dobson, his royal majesty and all around bestest christian ever, compared obama to sharpton. gaaaasppp!!!!

egads we all know sharpton can't be a good christian don't we, why dobson implies as much. yet sharpton was against the war in iraq while dobson said nothing, either because of moral cowardice, political expediency or ignorance of the teachings of jesus.

or all of the above.

dobson is yesterday's news and everyone knows it. his followers would never have voted for obama anyway so obama was smart to call him out.

we are weary of sanctimonious "sinners" telling us all how to live.

i'll take my chances wih obama over a charlatan klike dobson any day.

dragonrider
6/24/08
11:55 AM
QUOTE(podunk @ Jun 24 2008, 11:33 AM) [snapback]404551[/snapback]

Many people are taught to do that each and every time they read the Bible. Pray for understanding. Read. Meditate on the reading.
I read the bible and meditated and had some questions. When a messenger from God comes to visit and spends the night and my neighbors come over and want to get to know him do I need to offer up both my daughters to gang rape or will one be enough. The Bible says I can own slaves and they must obey their master. What is the fit punishment for me to meet out to my slaves when they disobey. My boss makes me work sundays and the bible says this is punishable by death should I stone him or bring a pistol to work and shoot him. Just wondering.
dragonrider
6/24/08
10:20 PM
Isn't Dobson one of those agents of intolerance that McCain condemned a few years ago.
harv1
6/24/08
11:18 PM
Dobson declared sometime back that he would never vote for McCain. He's obviously not going to vote for Obama.

Guess we won't be seeing him in the voting booth. zzzzzzzzzzzzzz



Oh for the good old days when 'he said; she said; he said' wasn't about who was a better Christian but who was the better candidate...

AngelFace
6/25/08
12:19 AM
QUOTE(justplainjoe @ Jun 24 2008, 11:46 AM) [snapback]404554[/snapback]

there is the problem yet you cannot see it. dobson, his royal majesty and all around bestest christian ever, compared obama to sharpton. gaaaasppp!!!!

egads we all know sharpton can't be a good christian don't we, why dobson implies as much. yet sharpton was against the war in iraq while dobson said nothing, either because of moral cowardice, political expediency or ignorance of the teachings of jesus.

or all of the above.

dobson is yesterday's news and everyone knows it. his followers would never have voted for obama anyway so obama was smart to call him out.

we are weary of sanctimonious "sinners" telling us all how to live.

i'll take my chances wih obama over a charlatan klike dobson any day.


Actually, if you listened to Obama's speech he mentioned Dobson and Sharpton, comparing/contrasting their interpretations of scripture. Dobson only mentioned S. because Obama did. (I am not a Dobson apologist, just a stickler for accurate quotes).
podunk
6/25/08
6:11 AM
QUOTE
My boss makes me work sundays and the bible says this is punishable by death

See, there is your problem. You need a reading comprehension class. Where does the Bible say you should not work on Sundays?
Scout
6/25/08
7:25 AM
QUOTE(podunk @ Jun 25 2008, 06:11 AM) [snapback]404788[/snapback]

See, there is your problem. You need a reading comprehension class. Where does the Bible say you should not work on Sundays?


Exodus 20:10

but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates.

Leviticus 23:3
There are six days when you may work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, a day of sacred assembly. You are not to do any work; wherever you live, it is a Sabbath to the Lord.

NIV



podunk
6/25/08
7:34 AM
That is my point about comprehension. It says to keep a Sabbath day. One day out of seven to rest and keep holy. Nothing mentioned about Sunday. Many people choose Saturday as their Sabbath Day. See, the details are important. Hence why we have so many different flavors of Christianity. Many of which choose to ignore the details or want to change the details to suit them. Not what suits God.
Scout
6/25/08
8:52 AM
QUOTE(podunk @ Jun 25 2008, 07:34 AM) [snapback]404799[/snapback]
That is my point about comprehension. It says to keep a Sabbath day. One day out of seven to rest and keep holy. Nothing mentioned about Sunday. Many people choose Saturday as their Sabbath Day. See, the details are important. Hence why we have so many different flavors of Christianity. Many of which choose to ignore the details or want to change the details to suit them. Not what suits God.


Ahhhhhhh so the blue laws (which still exist in some places, ie: Paramus, NJ) which were put in place so that people did NOT work specifically on Sunday (as the Sabbath) were wrong, and should have been written that no one could work on Saturday OR Sunday? Please. It is not a comprehension problem, it is the large number of different interpretations that are out there. Traditionally in Christianity, Sunday is treated as the Sabbath, hence Dragon's question.

podunk
6/25/08
9:15 AM
Hence why those laws no longer exist. Can you imagine them in place today? Gil and many others would have a hissy fit!! A law that is in place because of religion!?! Oh my! shocked.gif

However, you again have proved my point. Sunday was not written in the Bible. Sunday was an interpretation of something written in the Bible.
Scout
6/25/08
9:23 AM
QUOTE(podunk @ Jun 25 2008, 09:15 AM) [snapback]404829[/snapback]
Hence why those laws no longer exist. Can you imagine them in place today? Gil and many others would have a hissy fit!! A law that is in place because of religion!?! Oh my! shocked.gif


Again, they do still exist in some places

http://pewresearch.org/pubs/64/the-devils-...e-shopping-mall

podunk
6/25/08
9:29 AM
A quick call to the ACLU would solve that.
grieker
6/25/08
9:43 AM
QUOTE(tugrad @ Jun 24 2008, 10:21 AM) [snapback]404519[/snapback]




Jesus, really screwed up with the "eating with unwashed hands deal" I guess that is because this was written before science had an understanding of germs.



Okay, so he isn't perfect. Every living thing he creates dies; and he can't even get two finger prints the same. rolleyes.gif

dragonrider
6/25/08
11:27 AM
Well I still have the same problem becuase my boss requires I work 12 days straight and two days off. No matter how you shake it I am working on a sabbath.



Also we have the tiny problem that the day is supposed to be spendt in worship well last I checked most Christian churches worship on Sundays. Real hard to find that Presbyterian worship service on Wednesdays.

podunk
6/25/08
11:35 AM
a: you have placed your worldly needs (job and income) over your religious faith - there are other jobs

b: many hold saturday evening services - however who said you need a church to worship - you can worship in many different ways
dragonrider
6/25/08
11:42 AM
QUOTE(podunk @ Jun 25 2008, 11:35 AM) [snapback]404922[/snapback]
a: you have placed your worldly needs (job and income) over your religious faith - there are other jobs

b: many hold saturday evening services - however who said you need a church to worship - you can worship in many different ways
Yes those worldly needs of paying my bills instead of living on the dole of gubment. My job is a good one that allows me to support myself and pay child support for my kiddies. Sure I could find a different job , but not and still support myself and my kiddies without working two jobs and then still not being able to attend church service.

Jesus said where two or more are gathered there I am also. I take that to mean that Jesus expected us to worship in community with others.

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