Over there

June 13th, 2008 10:33 am · 44 comments

Glenn Greenwald notes the debate going on now in Great Britain, where a plan to expand the government’s authority to detain terrorist suspects for 42 days without bothering to charge them with any crime had run into stiff opposition - from conservatives:

The official position of the British Conservative Party is to oppose the legislation, and former Tory Prime Minister John Major — who himself was the target of a 1991 bombing-assassination plot by the IRA — wrote an Op-Ed in the Times Online emphatically opposing these increased detention powers and also opposing new DNA and other domestic surveillance programs. Headlined “42-day detention: the threat to our liberty — The Government’s plan is simply part of an assault on our ancient rights,” the conservative former Prime Minister wrote: …

I don’t believe that sacrifice of due process can be justified. If we are seen to defend our own values in a manner that does violence to them, then we run the risk of losing those values. Even worse, if our own standards fall, it will serve to recruit terrorists more effectively than their own propaganda could ever hope to. . . .

So inscrutable, those Brits.

Because over here, conservatives are all in favor of defending our values in a manner that “does violence” to them. Indeed, on the heels of yesterday’s Supreme Court ruling, conservatives have spent the past 24 hours wailing that the court’s failure to sanction extraconstitutional powers means WE’RE ALL GONNA DIE…

Greenwald:

Hence, while British conservatives largely oppose a policy merely to allow the Government to detain terrorist suspects for 42 days with no charges, our “conservatives” react with fury over the U.S. Supreme Court’s rejection of the President’s claimed authority to hold such suspects in Guantanamo for 6 years — really indefinitely — without providing them any meaningful process at all. In fact, the Bush administration asserted the right to detain even U.S. citizens, arrested on U.S. soil, indefinitely, with no charges or any contact with the outside world, for years, and they proceeded to do so, with virtually no opposition of any kind from our self-proclaimed right-wing defenders of individual liberty or limited government. …

<snip>

Moments earlier, McCarthy declared the Supreme Court ruling to mean that “the American people had lost to radical Islam, 5 to 4″ — in the authoritarian eyes of the American Right, the American people “lose” when our Government is required to prove the guilt of people before it can imprison them for life or kill them.

The contrast between the British Right and the American Right could not be more glaring. The former is at least mildly faithful to the principles they espouse, while the latter has morphed completely into an authoritarian, government-power-worshiping faction that fantasizes it’s waging glorious war against — to use Antonin Scalia’s politicized term — “radical Islamists,” but which is only at war with its own claimed principles and the principles on which the country was founded.

Pretty clear and pretty obvious. This defense of America conservatives imagine themselves waging is simply tripped up by the niceties of the constitution; we must be free to be as brutal as our foes or they will win. Makes a mockery of everything we tell our kids this country stands for in the first place.

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  44 comments  Tags: Authoritarianism · Terrorism · Legal/lawsuits

There are currently 44 comments on this blog post
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Pericles
6/13/08
11:08 AM
QUOTE(Lancaster Online @ Jun 13 2008, 10:35 AM) [snapback]400764[/snapback]


Post your thoughts and comments about this blog post.


Because over here, conservatives are all in favor of defending our values in a manner that “does violence” to them.

And over there, liberals like Tony Blair are all in favor of victory against Al Qaeda.
Livin-in-Lancaster
6/13/08
11:47 AM
Simple scenario for those being held in Guantanamo:



1) We pay for legal assistance to those being held 'against their will'.

2) After several million dollars of our money is spent, the former terrorists are freed to integrate into US population.

3) They are afforded every opportunity that US citiizens are given at our cost.

4) They become model citizens promoting peace throughout the land.

5) We all live happily ever after.



What other possible scenario could exist?

Terrorists are always willing to change their ways.

See how they have quietly adjusted in other parts of the world.







newsjunkie
6/13/08
11:57 AM

You have already made a presumption of GUILT...funny thing about the American system...You're supposed to presume INNOCENCE and proceed from there...this is vigilante justice...Texas justice? but NOT AMerican Justice.The Constitution is the law of the Land..not the law for citizens only, not the law at the presidents whim... defying these fundamental principles that are what have defined us and what our leaders have sworn to protect is TRAITOROUS!

dragonrider
6/13/08
12:37 PM
What part of I will uphold the constitution of the US did King George not understand when he swore the oath of office.
citydweller
6/13/08
1:27 PM
Well ya know Lil' Bush isn't much of a reader. Probably thought it said "deflect and pretend".
Pericles
6/13/08
1:35 PM
QUOTE(newsjunkie @ Jun 13 2008, 11:57 AM) [snapback]400804[/snapback]

You have already made a presumption of GUILT...funny thing about the American system...You're supposed to presume INNOCENCE and proceed from there...this is vigilante justice...Texas justice? but NOT AMerican Justice.The Constitution is the law of the Land..not the law for citizens only, not the law at the presidents whim... defying these fundamental principles that are what have defined us and what our leaders have sworn to protect is TRAITOROUS!



Let's avoid all this nonsense. No more prisoners, Marines.

dragonrider
6/13/08
1:38 PM
QUOTE(Pericles @ Jun 13 2008, 01:35 PM) [snapback]400871[/snapback]


Let's avoid all this nonsense. No more prisoners, Marines.

After all isn't that why we have a military that is as large as the rest of the worlds military combined. Bring it on. HURRAH
Pericles
6/13/08
1:42 PM
QUOTE(dragonrider @ Jun 13 2008, 12:37 PM) [snapback]400826[/snapback]
What part of I will uphold the constitution of the US did King George not understand when he swore the oath of office.


I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then question the manner in which I provide it. I prefer you said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand to post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.

Colonel Jessep - A Few Good Men
Bigby_M
6/13/08
1:43 PM
Ain't it funny how quickly people will sell out the values they always trumpet. We see it right now on a local level and we see it on a national level right now.

What is disconcerting is my past assigning to them of an intelligence that did not exist.

Had I known this I never would have called them stupid. laugh.gif



newsjunkie
6/13/08
1:47 PM
QUOTE(Pericles @ Jun 13 2008, 01:35 PM) [snapback]400871[/snapback]


Let's avoid all this nonsense. No more prisoners, Marines.



These guys aren't prisoners of war. they are a new category of prisoner...enemy combatant..why do you think george keeps them in CUBA..a political no man's land if ever there was one....If they were made prisoners of war...they would have to be handled using existing protocol...GW doesn't like having to follow rules.. even military ones...



QUOTE(Pericles @ Jun 13 2008, 01:42 PM) [snapback]400879[/snapback]


I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then question the manner in which I provide it. I prefer you said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand to post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.

Colonel Jessep - A Few Good Men


I haven't seen the movie...BUT..from this quote...what makes this man/or quote any different from something a dictator would say? And , sorry to offend...but not all military service protects our freedom...My "blanket of freedom" would be no different today...and perhaps a little more secure in fact...if those poor servicemen were not currently put in harms way by our traitor/failure of a president,....

Pericles
6/13/08
1:47 PM
QUOTE(newsjunkie @ Jun 13 2008, 11:57 AM) [snapback]400804[/snapback]

You have already made a presumption of GUILT...funny thing about the American system...You're supposed to presume INNOCENCE and proceed from there...this is vigilante justice...Texas justice? but NOT AMerican Justice.The Constitution is the law of the Land..not the law for citizens only, not the law at the presidents whim... defying these fundamental principles that are what have defined us and what our leaders have sworn to protect is TRAITOROUS!



The number is 2,996.

http://www.september11victims.com/septembe...ictims_list.htm

#1. Gordon Aamoth

#2,996. William Weems


Inadmissable and irrelevant.
cyberscribbler
6/13/08
1:50 PM
QUOTE(Pericles @ Jun 13 2008, 01:42 PM) [snapback]400879[/snapback]
Colonel Jessep - A Few Good Men

I guess you missed the end of that movie. rolleyes.gif
dragonrider
6/13/08
1:51 PM
QUOTE(Pericles @ Jun 13 2008, 01:42 PM) [snapback]400879[/snapback]


I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then question the manner in which I provide it. I prefer you said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand to post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.

Colonel Jessep - A Few Good Men
Wasn't Colonel Jessep found guilty during a courts martial?
Pericles
6/13/08
1:52 PM
QUOTE(newsjunkie @ Jun 13 2008, 01:47 PM) [snapback]400881[/snapback]


These guys aren't prisoners of war. they are a new category of prisoner...enemy combatant..why do you think george keeps them in CUBA..a political no man's land if ever there was one....If they were made prisoners of war...they would have to be handled using existing protocol...GW doesn't like having to follow rules.. even military ones...



Read the Geneva Convention Articles. They're not uniformed combatants, they're terrorists. They're not entitled to a damn thing.

According to Article IV of the Geneva Convention,(http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm) prisoners of war are: "Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, color, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria."

And "Persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:

  1. Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.
  2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfill the following conditions:
    1. That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
    2. That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;
    3. That of carrying arms openly;
    4. That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.
newsjunkie
6/13/08
1:52 PM
QUOTE(Pericles @ Jun 13 2008, 01:47 PM) [snapback]400887[/snapback]


The number is 2,996.

http://www.september11victims.com/septembe...ictims_list.htm

#1. Gordon Aamoth

#2,996. William Weems


Inadmissable and irrelevant.


Yes, but are you sure you've got the right guys?

Pericles
6/13/08
1:53 PM
QUOTE(cyberscribbler @ Jun 13 2008, 01:50 PM) [snapback]400890[/snapback]

I guess you missed the end of that movie. rolleyes.gif


I did miss it. Colonel Jessep got off didn't he?
dragonrider
6/13/08
1:53 PM
QUOTE(Pericles @ Jun 13 2008, 01:52 PM) [snapback]400892[/snapback]


Read the Geneva Convention Articles. They're not uniformed combatants, they're terrorists. They're not entitled to a damn thing.

According to Article IV of the Geneva Convention,(http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm) prisoners of war are: "Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, color, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria."

And "Persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:

  1. Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.
  2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfill the following conditions:
    1. That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
    2. That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;
    3. That of carrying arms openly;
    4. That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.
Apparently the Supremes disagree.
cyberscribbler
6/13/08
1:56 PM
QUOTE(Pericles @ Jun 13 2008, 01:53 PM) [snapback]400894[/snapback]


I did miss it. Colonel Jessep got off didn't he?
No, found guilty of ordering the code red. Court Marshalled.

Pericles
6/13/08
1:58 PM
QUOTE(newsjunkie @ Jun 13 2008, 01:47 PM) [snapback]400881[/snapback]

And , sorry to offend...but not all military service protects our freedom...


You mean like this guy didn't protect your freedom?

*DUNHAM, JASON L.

Rank and Organization: Corporal, United States Marine Corps
For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty while serving as Rifle Squad Leader, 4th Platoon, Company K, Third Battalion, Seventh Marines (Reinforced), Regimental Combat Team 7, First Marine Division (Reinforced), on 14 April 2004. Corporal Dunham's squad was conducting a reconnaissance mission in the town of Karabilah, Iraq, when they heard rocket-propelled grenade and small arms fire erupt approximately two kilometers to the west. Corporal Dunham led his Combined Anti-Armor Team towards the engagement to provide fire support to their Battalion Commander's convoy, which had been ambushed as it was traveling to Camp Husaybah. As Corporal Dunham and his Marines advanced, they quickly began to receive enemy fire. Corporal Dunham ordered his squad to dismount their vehicles and led one of his fire teams on foot several blocks south of the ambushed convoy. Discovering seven Iraqi vehicles in a column attempting to depart, Corporal Dunham and his team stopped the vehicles to search them for weapons. As they approached the vehicles, an insurgent leaped out and attacked Corporal Dunham. Corporal Dunham wrestled the insurgent to the ground and in the ensuing struggle saw the insurgent release a grenade. Corporal Dunham immediately alerted his fellow Marines to the threat. Aware of the imminent danger and without hesitation, Corporal Dunham covered the grenade with his helmet and body, bearing the brunt of the explosion and shielding his Marines from the blast. In an ultimate and selfless act of bravery in which he was mortally wounded, he saved the lives of at least two fellow Marines. By his undaunted courage, intrepid fighting spirit, and unwavering devotion to duty, Corporal Dunham gallantly gave his life for his country, thereby reflecting great credit upon himself and upholding the highest traditions of the Marine Corps and the United States Naval Service.


QUOTE(cyberscribbler @ Jun 13 2008, 01:56 PM) [snapback]400898[/snapback]
No, found guilty of ordering the code red. Court Marshalled.



No way. I'll watch the whole movie next time. laugh.gif
dragonrider
6/13/08
1:59 PM
QUOTE(Pericles @ Jun 13 2008, 01:58 PM) [snapback]400899[/snapback]


You mean like this guy didn't protect your freedom?

*DUNHAM, JASON L.

Rank and Organization: Corporal, United States Marine Corps
For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty while serving as Rifle Squad Leader, 4th Platoon, Company K, Third Battalion, Seventh Marines (Reinforced), Regimental Combat Team 7, First Marine Division (Reinforced), on 14 April 2004. Corporal Dunham's squad was conducting a reconnaissance mission in the town of Karabilah, Iraq, when they heard rocket-propelled grenade and small arms fire erupt approximately two kilometers to the west. Corporal Dunham led his Combined Anti-Armor Team towards the engagement to provide fire support to their Battalion Commander's convoy, which had been ambushed as it was traveling to Camp Husaybah. As Corporal Dunham and his Marines advanced, they quickly began to receive enemy fire. Corporal Dunham ordered his squad to dismount their vehicles and led one of his fire teams on foot several blocks south of the ambushed convoy. Discovering seven Iraqi vehicles in a column attempting to depart, Corporal Dunham and his team stopped the vehicles to search them for weapons. As they approached the vehicles, an insurgent leaped out and attacked Corporal Dunham. Corporal Dunham wrestled the insurgent to the ground and in the ensuing struggle saw the insurgent release a grenade. Corporal Dunham immediately alerted his fellow Marines to the threat. Aware of the imminent danger and without hesitation, Corporal Dunham covered the grenade with his helmet and body, bearing the brunt of the explosion and shielding his Marines from the blast. In an ultimate and selfless act of bravery in which he was mortally wounded, he saved the lives of at least two fellow Marines. By his undaunted courage, intrepid fighting spirit, and unwavering devotion to duty, Corporal Dunham gallantly gave his life for his country, thereby reflecting great credit upon himself and upholding the highest traditions of the Marine Corps and the United States Naval Service.




No way. I'll watch the whole movie next time. laugh.gif
Whats your point, that some americans are heroes even during an illegal imoral war.
Pericles
6/13/08
1:59 PM
QUOTE(newsjunkie @ Jun 13 2008, 01:52 PM) [snapback]400893[/snapback]


Yes, but are you sure you've got the right guys?



Free Khalid Sheikh Mohammed!
cyberscribbler
6/13/08
2:00 PM
QUOTE(Pericles @ Jun 13 2008, 01:58 PM) [snapback]400899[/snapback]
No way. I'll watch the whole movie next time. laugh.gif
Don't sweat it. It happened to Reagan a lot too. laugh.gif
newsjunkie
6/13/08
2:10 PM
QUOTE(Pericles @ Jun 13 2008, 01:58 PM) [snapback]400899[/snapback]


You mean like this guy didn't protect your freedom?

*DUNHAM, JASON L.

Rank and Organization: Corporal, United States Marine Corps
For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty while serving as Rifle Squad Leader, 4th Platoon, Company K, Third Battalion, Seventh Marines (Reinforced), Regimental Combat Team 7, First Marine Division (Reinforced), on 14 April 2004. Corporal Dunham's squad was conducting a reconnaissance mission in the town of Karabilah, Iraq, when they heard rocket-propelled grenade and small arms fire erupt approximately two kilometers to the west. Corporal Dunham led his Combined Anti-Armor Team towards the engagement to provide fire support to their Battalion Commander's convoy, which had been ambushed as it was traveling to Camp Husaybah. As Corporal Dunham and his Marines advanced, they quickly began to receive enemy fire. Corporal Dunham ordered his squad to dismount their vehicles and led one of his fire teams on foot several blocks south of the ambushed convoy. Discovering seven Iraqi vehicles in a column attempting to depart, Corporal Dunham and his team stopped the vehicles to search them for weapons. As they approached the vehicles, an insurgent leaped out and attacked Corporal Dunham. Corporal Dunham wrestled the insurgent to the ground and in the ensuing struggle saw the insurgent release a grenade. Corporal Dunham immediately alerted his fellow Marines to the threat. Aware of the imminent danger and without hesitation, Corporal Dunham covered the grenade with his helmet and body, bearing the brunt of the explosion and shielding his Marines from the blast. In an ultimate and selfless act of bravery in which he was mortally wounded, he saved the lives of at least two fellow Marines. By his undaunted courage, intrepid fighting spirit, and unwavering devotion to duty, Corporal Dunham gallantly gave his life for his country, thereby reflecting great credit upon himself and upholding the highest traditions of the Marine Corps and the United States Naval Service.









No he didn't . He died protecting his buddies...and he was a hero for it...and it's VERY TRAGIC...But the truth is...SADLY, my freedoms weren't/aren't at stake in this conflict....



QUOTE(Pericles @ Jun 13 2008, 01:59 PM) [snapback]400902[/snapback]


Free Khalid Sheikh Mohammed!




Again, as I posted on the Empire thread...Why are you so juvenile about these answers? You throw hundreds of years of refining a justice system out the window and then insist that the only option is to let the prisoners go free or hang 'em now? Presume innocence..and prove the guy guilty...If you're so sure he should die...you must have good reasons for it...just present them in a court ... What's with the extremes and ridiculousness...Do you really think the "liberals" don't want justice and weren't as horrified by 9/11 as you were... Perhaps the difference is vengeance vs. justice?

Pericles
6/13/08
2:26 PM
QUOTE(newsjunkie @ Jun 13 2008, 02:10 PM) [snapback]400905[/snapback]


No he didn't . He died protecting his buddies...and he was a hero for it...and it's VERY TRAGIC...But the truth is...SADLY, my freedoms weren't/aren't at stake in this conflict....

Again, as I posted on the Empire thread...Why are you so juvenile about these answers? You throw hundreds of years of refining a justice system out the window and then insist that the only option is to let the prisoners go free or hang 'em now? Presume innocence..and prove the guy guilty...If you're so sure he should die...you must have good reasons for it...just present them in a court ... What's with the extremes and ridiculousness...Do you really think the "liberals" don't want justice and weren't as horrified by 9/11 as you were... Perhaps the difference is vengeance vs. justice?



Here's my point.

How many medal of honors have been awarded in Iraq and Afghanistan? (Don't look it up now.) I'd bet that you don't know, and in my opinion you probably don't care.

I see your priorities.

dragonrider
6/13/08
2:39 PM
QUOTE(Pericles @ Jun 13 2008, 02:26 PM) [snapback]400918[/snapback]


Here's my point.

How many medal of honors have been awarded in Iraq and Afghanistan? (Don't look it up now.) I'd bet that you don't know, and in my opinion you probably don't care.

I see your priorities.

As I said and you miss the point even in illegal imoral wars there are heroes. Heroes in and of themselves do not justify the illegal and imoral war.

As far as priorities where were the republicans when troops were being denied body armor, armored vehicles, asked to server repeated missions in Iraq and 14 month missions. If republican priorities were with the troops as you imply then they would have provided these things along with proper health care facilities at the VA, and proper barrack conditions on return. But the true priority is empire building and stealing the oil of a sovereign nation.



How many american boys must fall on grenades to satisfy american bloodlust for war and war heroes.
newsjunkie
6/13/08
2:39 PM
QUOTE(Pericles @ Jun 13 2008, 02:26 PM) [snapback]400918[/snapback]


Here's my point.

How many medal of honors have been awarded in Iraq and Afghanistan? (Don't look it up now.) I'd bet that you don't know, and in my opinion you probably don't care.






You're right.I do not know and do not see how it is relevant..I do not see your point...Here is mine...Iraq and Afghanistan are two VERY different wars. Many of us supported going after the Taliban in Afghanistan but were vehemently against the Iraq invasion. The execution of both by the civilian leadership has been abysmal....It is a horrible shame that so many military people have been put at risk for such incompetence...AS a citizen I have cried for the soldiers put at risk...and done my very best to keep them out of harms way to start with...because I value them and their service...Much like Jim Webb...I think they volunteered to protect this country and our freedoms...to USE them cavalierlyand incompetently and then somehow (and this is the part I do not understand) get more people to sign up...is a crime as far as I'm concerned...a horrible waste of earnest vibrant life and I assume most of those soldiers would/should qualify for your medal of honor...which is why I think counting them is irrelevant...

Pericles
6/13/08
2:41 PM
QUOTE(cyberscribbler @ Jun 13 2008, 01:56 PM) [snapback]400898[/snapback]
No, found guilty of ordering the code red. Court Marshalled.



Unless there was a book (was there a book?), I do believe that he was taken into custody and the movie ended.

So as far as we know the ending could have been Colonel Jessep was released due to lack of evidence and he was subsequently promoted to one-star general.
cyberscribbler
6/13/08
3:05 PM
QUOTE(Pericles @ Jun 13 2008, 02:41 PM) [snapback]400923[/snapback]
So as far as we know the ending could have been Colonel Jessep was released due to lack of evidence

From wiki
QUOTE
Jessep, in an outburst, finally admits to ordering the Code Red.
At the prompting of Kaffee and the Judge (J.A. Preston), prosecutor Ross then places Jessep under arrest and reads him his rights.

He admitted guilt. There's no burden of proof of evidence. The crux of the case was the circumstances involving Santiago's death.
Pericles
6/13/08
3:17 PM
QUOTE(cyberscribbler @ Jun 13 2008, 03:05 PM) [snapback]400932[/snapback]

From wiki
He admitted guilt. There's no burden of proof of evidence. The crux of the case was the circumstances involving Santiago's death.


There is still a burden of proof required. An admission is not always definitive, but it is strong evidence under the UCMJ.

I think you're right though. He was found guilty....then pardonded by Bill Clinton.
cyberscribbler
6/13/08
3:24 PM
QUOTE(Pericles @ Jun 13 2008, 03:17 PM) [snapback]400934[/snapback]
I think you're right though. He was found guilty.
Thus invalidating the quote you referenced.
Man, it's like pulling teeth, sometimes.
laugh.gif
Pericles
6/13/08
3:42 PM
QUOTE(cyberscribbler @ Jun 13 2008, 03:24 PM) [snapback]400936[/snapback]
Thus invalidating the quote you referenced.
Man, it's like pulling teeth, sometimes.
laugh.gif


Not invalidated. He was proud as hell and guilty as sin.

Perceptions and nuances. Remember? laugh.gif
grieker
6/13/08
4:05 PM
QUOTE(dragonrider @ Jun 13 2008, 01:38 PM) [snapback]400873[/snapback]
After all isn't that why we have a military that is as large as the rest of the worlds military combined. Bring it on. HURRAH


Actually China' s 1.25 million ground troops out numbers ours three-fold.

bigstew
6/13/08
4:59 PM
QUOTE(dragonrider @ Jun 13 2008, 01:59 PM) [snapback]400901[/snapback]
Whats your point, that some americans are heroes even during an illegal imoral war.
Illegal to what authority?
Bigby_M
6/13/08
6:28 PM
QUOTE(bigstew @ Jun 13 2008, 04:59 PM) [snapback]400987[/snapback]
Illegal to what authority?


Jesus? laugh.gif

dragonrider
6/13/08
7:15 PM
QUOTE(bigstew @ Jun 13 2008, 04:59 PM) [snapback]400987[/snapback]
Illegal to what authority?
Ilegeal in terms of international law as under international law it is against the law to attack and occupy a foreign country without provocation. We were not attacked nor in any danger of being attacked by Iraq therefore it is an illegal war.

QUOTE(grieker @ Jun 13 2008, 04:05 PM) [snapback]400967[/snapback]


Actually China' s 1.25 million ground troops out numbers ours three-fold.

Actually I was talking dollars not people.
bigstew
6/13/08
8:39 PM
QUOTE(dragonrider @ Jun 13 2008, 07:15 PM) [snapback]401004[/snapback]
Ilegeal in terms of international law as under international law it is against the law to attack and occupy a foreign country without provocation. We were not attacked nor in any danger of being attacked by Iraq therefore it is an illegal war.
International law? International law can blow it out of its own @ss.

If international law would be worth the paper its printed on, we wouldn't have ended up in Iraq. International law(U.N.) can leave if they don't like it, they do not have authority over the U.S. anyway, thus the "illegal" argument is invalid and moot.

dragonrider
6/13/08
9:02 PM
QUOTE(bigstew @ Jun 13 2008, 08:39 PM) [snapback]401015[/snapback]
International law? International law can blow it out of its own @ss.

If international law would be worth the paper its printed on, we wouldn't have ended up in Iraq. International law(U.N.) can leave if they don't like it, they do not have authority over the U.S. anyway, thus the "illegal" argument is invalid and moot.

We are a world of laws and the US is expected to abide by the same international agreements as any other country. Bush and Cheney could possibly be brought up on charges after he leaves office for violations of international laws and the Geneva conventions. I hope personally that he does.
bigstew
6/14/08
12:04 AM
QUOTE(dragonrider @ Jun 13 2008, 09:02 PM) [snapback]401017[/snapback]
We are a world of laws and the US is expected to abide by the same international agreements as any other country. Bush and Cheney could possibly be brought up on charges after he leaves office for violations of international laws and the Geneva conventions. I hope personally that he does.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but the U.N. has absolutely no authority here.
citydweller
6/14/08
12:17 AM
Here's what I think 'Lil Bush heard in his 'Lil head when he took The Oath:

QUOTE
I do swolenly swear (at an intern) that I will "faith"-fully pollute the office of Prezinit of the 'Nited States, and will to the best of my sobriety, pervert, deflect and pretend the Constitution of the United States (dozen't exist y'all). Amen. MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!!!! YEAH !!! F***!!!!


Oh, yea - I'm not really kidding. I actually thinks that's what he thought was going on at the time. And likely still does.
dragonrider
6/14/08
2:32 AM
QUOTE(bigstew @ Jun 14 2008, 12:04 AM) [snapback]401050[/snapback]
Sorry to burst your bubble, but the U.N. has absolutely no authority here.
I bry Hitler felt the same way.
Save-the-Land
6/14/08
6:41 AM
On the detainees at Gitmo.......try'em and Fry'em. Let them have their virgins.

I'm still laughing at the UN.......they sit by while genocide is occurring in Sudan and they have the nerve to question the USA's human right's record. The UN is an excellent organization for lining the pockets of beauracrats from around the world. It is one of the most corrupt, inept and worthless instititutions on earth.

bigstew
6/14/08
7:34 AM
QUOTE(dragonrider @ Jun 14 2008, 02:32 AM) [snapback]401071[/snapback]
I bry Hitler felt the same way.
No, Hitler had no such sentiment. The U.N. didn't exist while Hitler was alive.

Regardless, they still have no authority over the U.S. In our country, federal law and the constitution are the ultimate authority. The U.N. has no power here.

dragonrider
6/14/08
10:04 AM
QUOTE(bigstew @ Jun 14 2008, 07:34 AM) [snapback]401091[/snapback]
No, Hitler had no such sentiment. The U.N. didn't exist while Hitler was alive.

Regardless, they still have no authority over the U.S. In our country, federal law and the constitution are the ultimate authority. The U.N. has no power here.

If you read my post I never said UN you said UN. I said international law and the Geneva Conventions which certainly were applied to good little Nazi's.



Federal law and the constitution, and Bush , I laugh laugh.gif







QUOTE(Save-the-Land @ Jun 14 2008, 06:41 AM) [snapback]401080[/snapback]
On the detainees at Gitmo.......try'em and Fry'em. Let them have their virgins.

I'm still laughing at the UN.......they sit by while genocide is occurring in Sudan and they have the nerve to question the USA's human right's record. The UN is an excellent organization for lining the pockets of beauracrats from around the world. It is one of the most corrupt, inept and worthless instititutions on earth.

Isn't that what the Supremes said, try em. But when been 6 years how many more years ya need to build a case, ya tortured them didn't ya get them to admit to sommin. If they is guilty try em , iffen they ain't release em.
Whirlwind
6/17/08
6:23 PM
"The U.N. has no power here."bigstew

Wrongo. Our troops are currently under "theirs". A couple years ago an enlisted man was court-martialed for refusing to wear the UN insignia on his uniform. Clue, that.


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