It’s the war, stupid
June 4th, 2008 12:30 pm · 46 comments
As Matt Y. and others note, all this punditocracizing about why Obama won/why Hillary loss tends to miss the bloody elephant in the room…
Clearly, Iraq alone wasn’t enough to carry Obama to victory. But had Clinton voted against the war in 2002 there would have been no Obama challenge — it would have been a senseless and absurd thing to do. In short — no war, no Obama.
Denying this reality seems to be part of the continuing hawk effort to avoid any accountability for the war.
Had we found WMDs, had Iraq been stabilized and we’re gone in six months, Hillary might be well on her way to becoming president. But Iraq is the watershed political event of our time; the lack of introspection and “I’m a hawk too!” business that seemed politically imperative in 2002 now simply looks like the strategic misjudgment it was.
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Tags: Obama · Hillary · War in Iraq
There are currently 46 comments on this blog postView Topic | Comment on this blogPericles 6/4/08 3:04 PM | QUOTE(Lancaster Online @ Jun 4 2008, 12:30 PM) [snapback]397112[/snapback]
Post your thoughts and comments about this blog post.
Aren't you also ignoring the elephant Gil? If the Surge continues to be successful, then both Hillary and Obama may be irrelevant.
Of course, at this point the war is falling further down the list of what's important to voters. So I believe that it's once again, "The economy, Stupid." |
jetscott 6/4/08 4:40 PM | if the surge CONTINUES to be succesful? |
segjt 6/4/08 5:10 PM | QUOTE(Lancaster Online @ Jun 4 2008, 12:30 PM) [snapback]397112[/snapback]
Post your thoughts and comments about this blog post.
Mr. Hussein may have won the battle but McCain will win the presidency. Liberals aren't numerous enough to carry the day...McCain gets the independent vote, the conservative vote, the moderate vote, and Hillary's minions...bye, bye Hussein.
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bigstew 6/4/08 5:15 PM | QUOTE(jetscott @ Jun 4 2008, 04:40 PM) [snapback]397237[/snapback] if the surge CONTINUES to be succesful? Yes. Even if you don't like it, it looks so. |
jetscott 6/4/08 5:29 PM | QUOTE(bigstew @ Jun 4 2008, 05:15 PM) [snapback]397261[/snapback] Yes. Even if you don't like it, it looks so. I don't know what you've been reading? Ah hell, why waste my valuable time?
QUOTE(segjt @ Jun 4 2008, 05:10 PM) [snapback]397257[/snapback]
Mr. Hussein may have won the battle but McCain will win the presidency. Liberals aren't numerous enough to carry the day...McCain gets the independent vote, the conservative vote, the moderate vote, and Hillary's minions...bye, bye Hussein.
I wouldn't bet on that.
QUOTE(bigstew @ Jun 4 2008, 05:15 PM) [snapback]397261[/snapback] Yes. Even if you don't like it, it looks so. one would think that with the most powerful military in the world, this would have taken about 2 weeks. But no, it's been years. Guess there's too much money involved to go in and get out huh? Here, tell me well it's going again.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24851062/ http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5g...98w8wD911E6CG0 http://www.mcclatchydc.com/iraq/story/39032.html http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0530/p07s02-wome.html http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5...CVlg2NLiqEEIlA http://www.reuters.com/article/featu.../idUSIST001988 http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...203869_pf.html
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Scout 6/4/08 6:14 PM | So, Obama gets a ride because he wasn't yet elected to the senate, and therefore didn't vote? WTF?!? I don't care what someone says they would have done "had they been there". Had Hillary not run and been elected, what would be the excuse then? Obama won the nomination because more people are prejudiced against women than black folk? Gimme a friggin' break on the I hate Hillary parade. It's over, you won. Let it go.
And even some of us gays are over the whole gay marriage thing ... give that a rest while you are at it :::longing for the days when I enjoyed your columns/blogs:::
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Artie See 6/4/08 6:34 PM | QUOTE(Lancaster Online @ Jun 4 2008, 12:30 PM) [snapback]397112[/snapback] But Iraq is the watershed political event of our time; the lack of introspection and āIām a hawk too!ā business that seemed politically imperative in 2002 now simply looks like the strategic misjudgment it was. If this interpretation is accurate, it is very likely that from now on the vast majority of U.S. Senators and Representatives will vote based not on what they believe is right, but instead they will vote in a way that will make them look the best politically. |
dragonrider 6/4/08 7:33 PM | QUOTE(jetscott @ Jun 4 2008, 04:40 PM) [snapback]397237[/snapback] if the surge CONTINUES to be succesful? Except the negotiation for continued US troops in Iraq is going nowhere becuase Iraq wants us gone by the end of December.
QUOTE(segjt @ Jun 4 2008, 05:10 PM) [snapback]397257[/snapback]
Mr. Hussein may have won the battle but McCain will win the presidency. Liberals aren't numerous enough to carry the day...McCain gets the independent vote, the conservative vote, the moderate vote, and Hillary's minions...bye, bye Hussein.
You are too funny . Repugnicans can't even win congressional seats in their traditional strong districts. McBush has no chance of winning with the 3rd term of McBush.
QUOTE(Artie See @ Jun 4 2008, 06:34 PM) [snapback]397286[/snapback] If this interpretation is accurate, it is very likely that from now on the vast majority of U.S. Senators and Representatives will vote based not on what they believe is right, but instead they will vote in a way that will make them look the best politically. And how is that a change from how things have been getting done. They raise issues not to get things done but to try and make the other guy look bad. Sheeesh why can't they remember the lessons they learned in the sand box.
QUOTE(Scout @ Jun 4 2008, 06:14 PM) [snapback]397280[/snapback] So, Obama gets a ride because he wasn't yet elected to the senate, and therefore didn't vote? WTF?!? I don't care what someone says they would have done "had they been there". Had Hillary not run and been elected, what would be the excuse then? Obama won the nomination because more people are prejudiced against women than black folk? Gimme a friggin' break on the I hate Hillary parade. It's over, you won. Let it go. And even some of us gays are over the whole gay marriage thing ... give that a rest while you are at it  :::longing for the days when I enjoyed your columns/blogs::: If I read another article in the gay press saying how right to marry is the end all of gay rights I think I will puke. We got people unemployed and underemployed due to discrimination and the folks in San Fran are so worried about marriage. Hell I just want to earn a decent living without hiding in the closet. As far as Hillary, racism sexism it was all there , who got the worse of it who knows, Hillary made some blunders, Obama got some free rides. But its over lets move on and bet the repugnicans out of office. |
Mr. Muto 6/4/08 7:47 PM | QUOTE(Pericles @ Jun 4 2008, 03:04 PM) [snapback]397190[/snapback]
Aren't you also ignoring the elephant Gil? If the Surge continues to be successful, then both Hillary and Obama may be irrelevant.
Of course, at this point the war is falling further down the list of what's important to voters. So I believe that it's once again, "The economy, Stupid."
The "Surge" is only sucessful on paper, the real reason is the USA is "PAYING" the enemy not to attack us. Do your homework, $10 a day buys us peace. I know, Who knew? I think we could have afforded $10 a day from the beginning, but there is alot more $$$$$ to be made by defense contractors so let the war drag on, and on, and on....................
Mark my words, there will still be a USA Military base/presence in Iraq 20 years form now. That is the problem with this country, WE NEVER LEAVE.
Later, Muto
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podunk 6/4/08 9:54 PM | 25 years from now you will understand why we couldn't leave. Until that time you can keep your moaning and groaning and declare how you did not support the war. When the smog clears your head and it all makes sense in the future you can admit how short-sighted you were and be thankful for the true leaders of the time. |
Rural Conservative 6/4/08 9:57 PM | QUOTE(jetscott @ Jun 4 2008, 05:29 PM) [snapback]397266[/snapback] one would think that with the most powerful military in the world, this would have taken about 2 weeks. But no, it's been years....
-- DISCLAIMER --
As previously stated I do not agree with our presence in Iraq (but still support the efforts of our troops there since that's where they are and I appreciate their service to our country).
-- END DISCLAIMER --
What do you think the war is? A friggin' video game? It's not Splinter Cell or Quake dude. Reality check. We went into a country believing that we would be seen as liberators, and we have been by many, but then we didn't close down the borders and in flood a bunch of "anti-occupation" forces. The government had the misguided notion that they could just go in, wipe out Saddam, set up a new government and leave with perhaps a token force left behind in a base outside of Baghdad.
Two weeks? are you nuts? Bear in mind too that this is now a different war than what we started out to fight. We started out to take out Saddam. That war is over. We are now in a second war (or sub-war if you will) which focuses on stabilizing the region and setting up the new government. The first war was successful. The second one? Not so much, until we added the necessary troops. We have now begun to see sucess. It's still an uphill climb, but hey, success is success regardless of the magnitude.
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lee41 6/5/08 2:00 AM | The goal for the current surge has been to reduce violence to some level that will allow Bush to declare victory before he leaves office, regardless the number of troops still in Iraq. The goal posts have moved once again.
The plan is to sign a security accord with Iraq (without Congressional approval) that will effectively 'end' the Iraq war - at least on paper. This will allow Bush to declare victory, give McCain his 'the surge worked' and allow Republicans to claim that Obama was wrong about Iraq.
What do the Iraqis think about this accord?
http://www.courant.com/news/nationworld/hc...0,1730606.story
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/mi...rol-840512.html
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Bigby_M 6/5/08 6:21 AM | QUOTE(podunk @ Jun 4 2008, 09:54 PM) [snapback]397358[/snapback] 25 years from now you will understand why we couldn't leave. Until that time you can keep your moaning and groaning and declare how you did not support the war. When the smog clears your head and it all makes sense in the future you can admit how short-sighted you were and be thankful for the true leaders of the time.
And why would that be? Any solid reasons or just platitudes?
Maybe you can enlighten us as to the real reason, since we already burned thru about 20 reasons all which were lies.
And if you are right why weren't we told the real reason instead of being lied to?
Oh maybe you are one of these "the govt knows best " kinda podunks?
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dragonrider 6/5/08 10:26 AM | QUOTE(Bigby_M @ Jun 5 2008, 06:21 AM) [snapback]397418[/snapback] And why would that be? Any solid reasons or just platitudes? Maybe you can enlighten us as to the real reason, since we already burned thru about 20 reasons all which were lies. And if you are right why weren't we told the real reason instead of being lied to? Oh maybe you are one of these "the govt knows best " kinda podunks? Only one reason will justify this war in 25 years "OIL" |
Pericles 6/5/08 10:45 AM | QUOTE(Mr. Muto @ Jun 4 2008, 07:47 PM) [snapback]397317[/snapback]
Mark my words, there will still be a USA Military base/presence in Iraq 20 years form now. That is the problem with this country, WE NEVER LEAVE.
Later, Muto
If you are correct, how do you explain the US forces withdrawal from the Philippines?
After WWII we constructed and occupied numerous bases and posts in that country, including Subic Bay and Clark AFB, both of which were huge multi-billion dollar bases.
But guess what, the Filipinos ask us to leave, and we left.
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dragonrider 6/5/08 11:54 AM | QUOTE(Pericles @ Jun 5 2008, 10:45 AM) [snapback]397560[/snapback]
If you are correct, how do you explain the US forces withdrawal from the Philippines?
After WWII we constructed and occupied numerous bases and posts in that country, including Subic Bay and Clark AFB, both of which were huge multi-billion dollar bases.
But guess what, the Filipinos ask us to leave, and we left.
Or the withdrawal of US forces from Cuba, Germany, Japan, South Korea, ooops sorry we never did withdraw from any of them did we. OOOPS  |
podunk 6/5/08 2:53 PM | QUOTE Only one reason will justify this war in 25 years "OIL"
DING! DING! DING! We have a winner.
Who has the largest military in the world? What do we need for that military to function? Oil.
Live with it and deal with it.
We will leave Iraq after we have alternative energy sources that can fuel our military. |
citydweller 6/5/08 3:31 PM | The thing that annoys me most in any of the dialogs about Iraq anymore is that the word "success" is even in the vocabulary.
"Success" in the context of what has taken place and anything that might take place means nothing more than "not quite as completely f-d up as it was earlier".
To succeed means "to accomplish a goal" and unless our stated goal is "to fail less horribly" we should stop using it as a distracting buzz word. |
Pericles 6/5/08 3:33 PM | QUOTE(dragonrider @ Jun 5 2008, 11:54 AM) [snapback]397618[/snapback] Or the withdrawal of US forces from Cuba, Germany, Japan, South Korea, ooops sorry we never did withdraw from any of them did we. OOOPS
Did they ask us to leave? Nope. Apparently they want us there. OOOPS.
BTW, Cuba is a lease.
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grieker 6/5/08 3:34 PM | QUOTE(podunk @ Jun 5 2008, 02:53 PM) [snapback]397729[/snapback]
DING! DING! DING! We have a winner.
Who has the largest military in the world? What do we need for that military to function? Oil.
Live with it and deal with it.
We will leave Iraq after we have alternative energy sources that can fuel our military.
Wrong again. Listen, we have enough oil under our land for 100 years, we don't need foreign oil. If we (you) would get off your butt and allow us to drill the first thing that whould happen is the speculators would have a tissy fit and the price at the pump would go down.
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jetscott 6/5/08 3:41 PM | QUOTE(Rural Conservative @ Jun 4 2008, 09:57 PM) [snapback]397360[/snapback]
-- DISCLAIMER --
As previously stated I do not agree with our presence in Iraq (but still support the efforts of our troops there since that's where they are and I appreciate their service to our country).
-- END DISCLAIMER --
What do you think the war is? A friggin' video game? It's not Splinter Cell or Quake dude. Reality check. We went into a country believing that we would be seen as liberators, and we have been by many, but then we didn't close down the borders and in flood a bunch of "anti-occupation" forces. The government had the misguided notion that they could just go in, wipe out Saddam, set up a new government and leave with perhaps a token force left behind in a base outside of Baghdad.
Two weeks? are you nuts? Bear in mind too that this is now a different war than what we started out to fight. We started out to take out Saddam. That war is over. We are now in a second war (or sub-war if you will) which focuses on stabilizing the region and setting up the new government. The first war was successful. The second one? Not so much, until we added the necessary troops. We have now begun to see sucess. It's still an uphill climb, but hey, success is success regardless of the magnitude.
2 weeks, yeah. if they really wanted to win the"war" as you call it, they could drop a bomb and end it quick. this is a game. a political game. liberation my !profanity! just like vietnam was huh? you people buy into all the garbage they throw at you. still believe nam was a just cause? you people are nuts. sorry pal, i'm too old to be playing video games so i can't relate to what you mentioned on that topic.
QUOTE(dragonrider @ Jun 5 2008, 10:26 AM) [snapback]397543[/snapback] Only one reason will justify this war in 25 years "OIL" exactly!!!
QUOTE(Pericles @ Jun 5 2008, 10:45 AM) [snapback]397560[/snapback]
If you are correct, how do you explain the US forces withdrawal from the Philippines?
After WWII we constructed and occupied numerous bases and posts in that country, including Subic Bay and Clark AFB, both of which were huge multi-billion dollar bases.
But guess what, the Filipinos ask us to leave, and we left.
wwII is way more than 20 years ago |
Pericles 6/5/08 3:42 PM | QUOTE(grieker @ Jun 5 2008, 03:34 PM) [snapback]397746[/snapback]
Wrong again. Listen, we have enough oil under our land for 100 years, we don't need foreign oil. If we (you) would get off your butt and allow us to drill the first thing that whould happen is the speculators would have a tissy fit and the price at the pump would go down.
And it's sad that the same people who always claim that the war was for oil, are opposed to us gettin' more of it right here at home. If they followed their own logic, then it's their fault we're in Iraq because they wouldn't let us get our own oil right here at home.
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jetscott 6/5/08 3:44 PM | QUOTE(grieker @ Jun 5 2008, 03:34 PM) [snapback]397746[/snapback]
Wrong again. Listen, we have enough oil under our land for 100 years, we don't need foreign oil. If we (you) would get off your butt and allow us to drill the first thing that whould happen is the speculators would have a tissy fit and the price at the pump would go down.
do you have any idea how many applications to drill were presented in the last 20 years? |
Pericles 6/5/08 3:45 PM | QUOTE(jetscott @ Jun 5 2008, 03:41 PM) [snapback]397750[/snapback]
wwII is way more than 20 years ago
Gee that true, but we withdrew from the Philippines in 1992, which is only 16 years ago.
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lee41 6/5/08 4:07 PM | QUOTE(grieker @ Jun 5 2008, 03:34 PM) [snapback]397746[/snapback] Wrong again. Listen, we have enough oil under our land for 100 years, we don't need foreign oil. If we (you) would get off your butt and allow us to drill the first thing that whould happen is the speculators would have a tissy fit and the price at the pump would go down.
From the DoI's Minerals Management Service:
QUOTE Today, there are approximately 4,000 platforms operating in the Gulf of Mexico producing nearly 1.6 million barrels of oil per day and 12.1 billion cubic feet of natural gas per day. Now in its ninth year of expansion, deepwater oil and gas development in the Gulf of Mexico is a workhorse for U.S. domestic oil and gas production. Deepwater oil production rose 535 percent between 1995 and 2002, and deepwater gas production rose 620 percent over those same years. If current trends continue, by 2006, as much as 77 percent of daily oil production in the gulf and 26 percent of daily gas production could come from the deep water regions.
QUOTE MMS estimates that 76.0 billion barrels of oil and 406.1 trillion cubic feet of natural gas are technically recoverable from federal offshore areas. These estimates represent the potential hydrocarbons of an area that can be produced using current technology, without any consideration to economic feasibility. Current technology includes drilling in water in excess of 3000 meters (10,000 feet) deep and to depths in excess of 9600 meters (31,700 feet).
And let's remember that Bush 43 excluded the eastern gulf from leases until 2012 to help Jeb get re-elected.
If 4000 wells in the GoM generate only 1.6 mbbd, and we imported 12.5 mppd (6 from OPEC), we would need to add 10,000-15,000 wells to be self-sufficient. Not likely to happen anytime soon, regardless of how many acres are available.
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jetscott 6/5/08 4:45 PM | QUOTE(Pericles @ Jun 5 2008, 03:45 PM) [snapback]397759[/snapback]
Gee that true, but we withdrew from the Philippines in 1992, which is only 16 years ago.
yeah, how many years after wwii was that?
in addition. why would the oil companies want to drill for more oil? so they can sell it cheaper and make less money? I'm no wharton school of business grad, but that doesn't sound like something they would be eager to do in my opinion. |
Pericles 6/5/08 8:01 PM | QUOTE(jetscott @ Jun 5 2008, 04:45 PM) [snapback]397779[/snapback] yeah, how many years after wwii was that?
How many years? Less than two years from the time they asked us to leave. Before then they were perfectly happy having us there, and I never heard a peep from anyone about our foreign bases being a problem. Perhaps I am wrong though. We're you protesting our presence in the Philippines in 1990?
Nobody cared. It's only in the context of Iraq that these foreign bases are a problem. Once the fighting dies down, the problem will cease to exist, just like our military presence in Saudia Arabia and Kuwait is not a problem.
QUOTE(jetscott @ Jun 5 2008, 04:45 PM) [snapback]397779[/snapback] yeah, how many years after wwii was that?
in addition. why would the oil companies want to drill for more oil? so they can sell it cheaper and make less money? I'm no wharton school of business grad, but that doesn't sound like something they would be eager to do in my opinion.
For the same reason that all the auto makers started to build mini vans. There's a market.
If I were small domestic oil company, or an investment banker with the ability to cobble together a drilling company, I'd darm sure try to find some oil and get it on the market.
We're not talking about just one oil company, if that were the case then you might have a point.
QUOTE(lee41 @ Jun 5 2008, 04:07 PM) [snapback]397764[/snapback]
If 4000 wells in the GoM generate only 1.6 mbbd, and we imported 12.5 mppd (6 from OPEC), we would need to add 10,000-15,000 wells to be self-sufficient. Not likely to happen anytime soon, regardless of how many acres are available.
And that data is based on a $30, $40, $50 barrel of oil? I'd say that at $130 a barrel, things would speed up quite dramatically. |
Rural Conservative 6/5/08 8:35 PM | QUOTE(jetscott @ Jun 5 2008, 03:41 PM) [snapback]397750[/snapback] 2 weeks, yeah. if they really wanted to win the"war" as you call it, they could drop a bomb and end it quick. this is a game. a political game. liberation my !profanity! just like vietnam was huh? you people buy into all the garbage they throw at you. still believe nam was a just cause? you people are nuts. sorry pal, i'm too old to be playing video games so i can't relate to what you mentioned on that topic.
Drop a bomb? You mean a nuke? What? In today's political climate, one shepherd gets offed by a stray bullet and it's all over the news. Can you imagine the reaction to a nuke? Sure, it would certainly do a number on Iraq, but we would quickly become a lot less popular than we already are.
Who said anything about 'nam being justified? I didn't. I wasn't even alive until shortly after U.S involvement in that war ended. And...I thought it was Kennedy (a Democrat) who sent us over there, and Nixon (a Republican), who got us out?
-- Disclaimer --
I'm not a Republican, nor do I have any love for that party, just pointing out the facts.
-- End Disclaimer --
you obviously didn't really read what I wrote. It appears that you just had a knee jerk reaction to the first sentence...after the original disclaimer...did you even read that? Sheesh.
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Mr. Muto 6/5/08 8:40 PM | QUOTE(Pericles @ Jun 5 2008, 10:45 AM) [snapback]397560[/snapback]
If you are correct, how do you explain the US forces withdrawal from the Philippines?
After WWII we constructed and occupied numerous bases and posts in that country, including Subic Bay and Clark AFB, both of which were huge multi-billion dollar bases.
But guess what, the Filipinos ask us to leave, and we left.
Well, according to this story written less than a year ago, the US is once again planning to have a Base/Presence in the Philippines.
http://www.manilatimes.net/national/2007/a...070827top1.html
Later, Muto
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jetscott 6/5/08 8:48 PM | QUOTE(Rural Conservative @ Jun 5 2008, 08:35 PM) [snapback]397836[/snapback]
Drop a bomb? You mean a nuke? What? In today's political climate, one shepherd gets offed by a stray bullet and it's all over the news. Can you imagine the reaction to a nuke? Sure, it would certainly do a number on Iraq, but we would quickly become a lot less popular than we already are.
Who said anything about 'nam being justified? I didn't. I wasn't even alive until shortly after U.S involvement in that war ended. And...I thought it was Kennedy (a Democrat) who sent us over there, and Nixon (a Republican), who got us out?
-- Disclaimer --
I'm not a Republican, nor do I have any love for that party, just pointing out the facts.
-- End Disclaimer --
you obviously didn't really read what I wrote. It appears that you just had a knee jerk reaction to the first sentence...after the original disclaimer...did you even read that? Sheesh.
the same people justifying this war, are from the same cloth that justified nam. And they were proven wrong. They still probably won't admit it though just like those who support it today. And I'm not talking about supporting the soldiers. I'm talking about the reason we are there.Why spend all the money on nukes if we never will use them? Here's more proof about the lies.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080605/pl_nm/...intelligence_dc
QUOTE(Pericles @ Jun 5 2008, 08:01 PM) [snapback]397824[/snapback]
How many years? Less than two years from the time they asked us to leave. Before then they were perfectly happy having us there, and I never heard a peep from anyone about our foreign bases being a problem. Perhaps I am wrong though. We're you protesting our presence in the Philippines in 1990?
Nobody cared. It's only in the context of Iraq that these foreign bases are a problem. Once the fighting dies down, the problem will cease to exist, just like our military presence in Saudia Arabia and Kuwait is not a problem.
For the same reason that all the auto makers started to build mini vans. There's a market.
If I were small domestic oil company, or an investment banker with the ability to cobble together a drilling company, I'd darm sure try to find some oil and get it on the market.
We're not talking about just one oil company, if that were the case then you might have a point.
And that data is based on a $30, $40, $50 barrel of oil? I'd say that at $130 a barrel, things would speed up quite dramatically. you missed the whole point. How many years from ww2 until 1990? Then we left? Because we were asked to? that's a long time. get real, you think a small domestic oil company is going to push their way into this stronghold the government and big oil have today?And minivans aren't the same thing. people don't have a choice. gas is gas. you have a choice of what you drive but not what you put in the tank. |
jetscott 6/5/08 9:08 PM | QUOTE(Rural Conservative @ Jun 5 2008, 08:35 PM) [snapback]397836[/snapback]
Drop a bomb? You mean a nuke? What? In today's political climate, one shepherd gets offed by a stray bullet and it's all over the news. Can you imagine the reaction to a nuke? Sure, it would certainly do a number on Iraq, but we would quickly become a lot less popular than we already are.
Who said anything about 'nam being justified? I didn't. I wasn't even alive until shortly after U.S involvement in that war ended. And...I thought it was Kennedy (a Democrat) who sent us over there, and Nixon (a Republican), who got us out?
-- Disclaimer --
I'm not a Republican, nor do I have any love for that party, just pointing out the facts.
-- End Disclaimer --
you obviously didn't really read what I wrote. It appears that you just had a knee jerk reaction to the first sentence...after the original disclaimer...did you even read that? Sheesh.
oh yeah, just to inform you. The vietnam war started in 1956 under Ike, not kennedy. And I wouldn't go so far as to give Nixon the credit for getting us out. The country pretty much demanded it, sort of like now.That's almost as bad as giving Reagan credit for tearing down the Berlin wall. |
segjt 6/5/08 10:12 PM | QUOTE(jetscott @ Jun 5 2008, 09:08 PM) [snapback]397847[/snapback] oh yeah, just to inform you. The vietnam war started in 1956 under Ike, not kennedy. And I wouldn't go so far as to give Nixon the credit for getting us out. The country pretty much demanded it, sort of like now.That's almost as bad as giving Reagan credit for tearing down the Berlin wall.
It was factually Kennedy who sent the first combat troops into vietnam. Prior to that our troops only acted in an observational capacity...
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jetscott 6/5/08 10:17 PM | QUOTE(segjt @ Jun 5 2008, 10:12 PM) [snapback]397863[/snapback] It was factually Kennedy who sent the first combat troops into vietnam. Prior to that our troops only acted in an observational capacity... that I wouldn't dispute |
grieker 6/6/08 8:21 AM | QUOTE(jetscott @ Jun 5 2008, 04:45 PM) [snapback]397779[/snapback] yeah, how many years after wwii was that?
in addition. why would the oil companies want to drill for more oil? so they can sell it cheaper and make less money? I'm no wharton school of business grad, but that doesn't sound like something they would be eager to do in my opinion.
Do you know what the profit margin is for BIG OIL on each gallon of gas?
Less than 10 cents per gallon.
They do all the drilling, transportation to the refinery, they refine it, transport it to the station, all that for less than 10 cents per gallon.
The government on the other hand, sits on its butt risking nothing, investing nothing and yet they take on average 57 cents per gallon.
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cyberscribbler 6/6/08 9:56 AM | QUOTE(grieker @ Jun 6 2008, 08:21 AM) [snapback]397958[/snapback] Do you know what the profit margin is for BIG OIL on each gallon of gas? Less than 10 cents per gallon. They do all the drilling, transportation to the refinery, they refine it, transport it to the station, all that for less than 10 cents per gallon. Their highest profit margin is in the production sharing agreements to the country where they're drilling.
QUOTE The government on the other hand, sits on its butt risking nothing, investing nothing and yet they take on average 57 cents per gallon. I thought it was 18 cents per gallon.
QUOTE John McCain, the presumptive Republican nominee, first called for the so-called gas tax holiday, which would lift the 18.4-cent federal tax on each gallon of gas and 24.4-cent levy on each gallon of diesel. That's why the gas tax holiday proposal is such a joke. It would save the average consumer $28 a month this summer. The gov't not risking or paying anything! Do you honestly think all the soldiers and associated military equipment, contractors, mercenaries are working in Iraq for free?
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grieker 6/6/08 10:06 AM | QUOTE(cyberscribbler @ Jun 6 2008, 09:56 AM) [snapback]398014[/snapback] Their highest profit margin is in the production sharing agreements to the country where they're drilling.
I thought it was 18 cents per gallon.
PA taxes are 31.1 and add in fed 18.4. Here's a chart.
http://www.gaspricewatch.com/usgastaxes.asp
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cyberscribbler 6/6/08 10:13 AM | QUOTE(grieker @ Jun 6 2008, 10:06 AM) [snapback]398026[/snapback] PA taxes are 31.1 and add in fed 18.4. Here's a chart. http://www.gaspricewatch.com/usgastaxes.asp I see it's the evil socialists in Pa , building roads.
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grieker 6/6/08 10:19 AM | QUOTE(grieker @ Jun 6 2008, 10:06 AM) [snapback]398026[/snapback] PA taxes are 31.1 and add in fed 18.4. Here's a chart. http://www.gaspricewatch.com/usgastaxes.asp
This chart is more current.
http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/245.html
QUOTE(cyberscribbler @ Jun 6 2008, 10:13 AM) [snapback]398032[/snapback] I see it's the evil socialists in Pa , building roads.
So who is more evil? Pa building roads or oil companies making gas for you to drive on those roads?
You want to go after an evil group, try jewelry shops and look at their profit margin/mark-up. Or maybe a bar/restaraunt and look at their margin on soda or worse yet a mixed drink.
Not trying to give "BIG OIL" a pass here, just saying.
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cyberscribbler 6/6/08 11:15 AM | QUOTE(grieker @ Jun 6 2008, 10:19 AM) [snapback]398035[/snapback] This chart is more current. http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/245.htmlSo who is more evil? Pa building roads or oil companies making gas for you to drive on those roads? Ike thought interstate hgwys were a critical component to further the great post WWII housing boom. Now were locked into this model when other countries are coming onboard too. Maintain the roads, use less energy to drive on them, rely on mass transit, car pooling.
QUOTE You want to go after an evil group, try jewelry shops and look at their profit margin/mark-up. You'll get no argument from me there.
QUOTE Not trying to give "BIG OIL" a pass here, just saying. It sure sounded like it when you said they only make 10 cents a gallon. They're shutting out the independents, controlling more of every step in the process, drilling, refining & delivery.
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dragonrider 6/6/08 11:36 AM | It amazes me that conservatives are willing to spend Billions of dollars a month for an illegal war of agression but not willing to spend a few million to make sure another bridge doesn't collapse in the US. What would Jesus do? Where are our priorities. |
jetscott 6/6/08 12:01 PM | they're nuts. You can't make sense out of them. Don't even try |
cyberscribbler 6/6/08 12:27 PM | A paltry 10 cents a gallon. Meanwhile ExxonMobil recorded the highest profit ever for a US company, a year or so ago. They're making 44 billion a year, at the current pace.
QUOTE Houston-based ExxonMobil (XOM), the No. 1 publicly traded oil company in the world, rode record crude oil prices to $ 10.9 billion in first-quarter earnings Thursday, despite lower production of oil. ExxonMobil's 17% increase in quarterly earnings from a year ago continues a string of eye-popping earnings announcements from big oil companies in the USA and the United Kingdom this week, including BP (BP), up 60%; Shell (RDSA), 25%; and Conoco (COP), 17%. Chevron (CVX) announces its earnings Friday. "A rising tide lifted all ships," says Fadel Gheit, an oil industry analyst at Oppenheimer. "The gains from higher oil prices more than offset the lower production volume."
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2fat2ride 6/6/08 1:47 PM | QUOTE(grieker @ Jun 6 2008, 10:19 AM) [snapback]398035[/snapback] You want to go after an evil group, try jewelry shops and look at their profit margin/mark-up. Or maybe a bar/restaraunt and look at their margin on soda or worse yet a mixed drink.
There is a big difference between mark-up and profit margin.
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dragonrider 6/6/08 2:19 PM | QUOTE(2fat2ride @ Jun 6 2008, 01:47 PM) [snapback]398237[/snapback]
There is a big difference between mark-up and profit margin.
Zactly most restaurants profit margin is quite small. |
double-clutch 6/6/08 2:47 PM | QUOTE(Rural Conservative @ Jun 4 2008, 09:57 PM) [snapback]397360[/snapback]
-- DISCLAIMER --
As previously stated I do not agree with our presence in Iraq (but still support the efforts of our troops there since that's where they are and I appreciate their service to our country).
-- END DISCLAIMER --
What do you think the war is? A friggin' video game? It's not Splinter Cell or Quake dude. Reality check. We went into a country believing that we would be seen as liberators, and we have been by many, but then we didn't close down the borders and in flood a bunch of "anti-occupation" forces. The government had the misguided notion that they could just go in, wipe out Saddam, set up a new government and leave with perhaps a token force left behind in a base outside of Baghdad.
"Hmmm...really? I thought we went in for the so-called "Weapons of Mass Destruction" and Osama Bin Laden...then it changed to Saddam and giving them a government much like ours" Unfortunately, our government, as the rest of the world sees it, is a joke! Cost of living expenses on the rise, wages remaing low, jobless rates climbing and climbing, factories closing down and moving overseas or to Mexico. The economy is in a crisis and all that seems to be going on is the same thing that always goes on..finger pointing! I ask you this, who would want a government like ours?? If you ask me, I think ours is more corrupt then Saddam's."
Two weeks? are you nuts? Bear in mind too that this is now a different war than what we started out to fight. We started out to take out Saddam. That war is over. We are now in a second war (or sub-war if you will) which focuses on stabilizing the region and setting up the new government. The first war was successful. The second one? Not so much, until we added the necessary troops. We have now begun to see sucess. It's still an uphill climb, but hey, success is success regardless of the magnitude.
"Reality check...How successful do you really think were going to be at stabilizing a nation that forever has a history of being a volatile nation that everyday worries about the threat of sucide bombers, insurgents and militias. I find it fascinating that we went in to put an end to a dictatorship only to inject our ideas and forms of government(which clearly is in a sense of dismay) to this region. Hmmm, doesn't that sound to you like a dictatorship of our own???"
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dragonrider 6/6/08 2:54 PM | QUOTE(double-clutch @ Jun 6 2008, 02:47 PM) [snapback]398306[/snapback]
"Reality check...How successful do you really think were going to be at stabilizing a nation that forever has a history of being a volatile nation that everyday worries about the threat of sucide bombers, insurgents and militias. I find it fascinating that we went in to put an end to a dictatorship only to inject our ideas and forms of government(which clearly is in a sense of dismay) to this region. Hmmm, doesn't that sound to you like a dictatorship of our own???"
More like we want another puppet state that will do our bidding. Democracy, dictatorship or theocracy King George don't care as long as they follow our bidding. |
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