Cameras and beyond
June 4th, 2008 5:49 pm · 26 comments
Been following the discussion on security cameras in Lancaster, something on which I’m ambivalent; Citydweller puts forth a decent case here, and I’ve actually had this argument with some others. But the way I see it, what does a security camera mounted on a telephone pole see that a uniformed officer walking the beat or sitting in a squad car wouldn’t?
I understand the whole Orwell argument, but there’s a difference between public and private spaces, isn’t there? When government declares its intent - it’s right - to peer into private spaces, to read your e-mail and intercept all your phone calls and check to make sure you’re on the up and up, that’s unquestionably the police-state mentality. The security cameras, on the other hand, see what that cop walking the beat might see, though they obviously don’t come and go as the cop might; and there may indeed be questions about who watches the watchers, the civilian employees who get to monitor the feeds.
Then again, at least we don’t have the Washington D.C. plan. Yet:
D.C. police will seal off entire neighborhoods, set up checkpoints and kick out strangers under a new program that D.C. officials hope will help them rescue the city from its out-of-control violence.
Under an executive order expected to be announced today, police Chief Cathy L. Lanier will have the authority to designate “Neighborhood Safety Zones.” At least six officers will man cordons around those zones and demand identification from people coming in and out of them. Anyone who doesn’t live there, work there or have “legitimate reason” to be there will be sent away or face arrest, documents obtained by The Examiner show.
As Matt Y. notes, it seems to work well in Baghdad.
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Tags: crime
There are currently 26 comments on this blog postView Topic | Comment on this blogdragonrider 6/4/08 7:36 PM | QUOTE(Lancaster Online @ Jun 4 2008, 05:50 PM) [snapback]397275[/snapback]
Post your thoughts and comments about this blog post. Let me guess these safety zones are upper income white neighbor hoods. |
charlie_crystle 6/5/08 12:13 PM | QUOTE(Lancaster Online @ Jun 4 2008, 05:50 PM) [snapback]397275[/snapback]
Post your thoughts and comments about this blog post.
it's different, Gil. it's a sophisticated computerized network of surveillance cameras run by people about whom we know nothing, who work for a board that is not the city government and is thus not accountable to the citizenry. That's just for starters. By my second beer I'll be deep into the Constitutional issues well beyond privacy and search and seizure. No oversight, transparency, or accountability.
Here's a questions; we have 60,000 people in Lancaster. How many are active criminals? 100? 600? 6000? Let's say it's 6000. Does that justify putting the entire population under full time surveillance?
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jackieboy 6/5/08 12:33 PM | Yes we need to put the entire population under full time surveillance, cause you never know when the laws will change making us all criminals. |
grieker 6/5/08 12:40 PM | QUOTE(dragonrider @ Jun 4 2008, 07:36 PM) [snapback]397310[/snapback] Let me guess these safety zones are upper income white neighbor hoods.
Of course. The people in the other "hoods" already have guns to defend themselves
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tugrad 6/5/08 1:26 PM | QUOTE(charlie_crystle @ Jun 5 2008, 12:13 PM) [snapback]397638[/snapback]
Here's a questions; we have 60,000 people in Lancaster. How many are active criminals? 100? 600? 6000? Let's say it's 6000. Does that justify putting the entire population under full time surveillance?
No!
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grieker 6/5/08 1:28 PM | QUOTE(tugrad @ Jun 5 2008, 01:26 PM) [snapback]397690[/snapback] No!
Well GOD watches me all the time so I guess some cameras won't bother me.
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tugrad 6/5/08 1:30 PM | QUOTE(grieker @ Jun 5 2008, 01:28 PM) [snapback]397692[/snapback]
Well GOD watches me all the time so I guess some cameras won't bother me.
Not all of us are so willing to give up our basic civil rights.
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gsmart 6/5/08 1:34 PM | QUOTE(charlie_crystle @ Jun 5 2008, 12:13 PM) [snapback]397638[/snapback] Here's a questions; we have 60,000 people in Lancaster. How many are active criminals? 100? 600? 6000? Let's say it's 6000. Does that justify putting the entire population under full time surveillance?
I go back to my original argument. Does it justify putting a cop on the corner in a neighborhood where crime is high? Don't the cops themselves "surveil" neighborhoods and the people who live in them?
What does the camera see that a cop on the beat wouldn't?
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dc 6/5/08 1:34 PM | QUOTE(Lancaster Online @ Jun 4 2008, 05:50 PM) [snapback]397275[/snapback] But the way I see it, what does a security camera mounted on a telephone pole see that a uniformed officer walking the beat or sitting in a squad car wouldn't? Gil....I am not saying that I am in total favor of the cameras. But, to answer this question, I think that a crime that would be caught on video would be much more convincing to a judge or jury (if it got to this point), than an eye witness, no matter who that person is. The video would be able to be played over and over, giving the opportunity to pull out relevant details that would have been missed by the "live" witness......... |
gsmart 6/5/08 1:40 PM | QUOTE(dc @ Jun 5 2008, 01:34 PM) [snapback]397696[/snapback] I think that a crime that would be caught on video would be much more convincing to a judge or jury (if it got to this point), than an eye witness, no matter who that person is. The video would be able to be played over and over, giving the opportunity to pull out relevant details that would have been missed by the "live" witness.........
Well, sure - and it might also preclude some cases from getting to the jury in the first place. But that seems to me a benefit rather than a drawback; both from a law enforcement perspective and from a judicial cost perspective.
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Rural Conservative 6/5/08 1:59 PM | QUOTE(gsmart @ Jun 5 2008, 01:34 PM) [snapback]397695[/snapback]
What does the camera see that a cop on the beat wouldn't?
I think this question oversimplifies the issue.
The difference between a police officer and a camera is that the police officer is not always there. He/she, looks around, then moves of, except in the case of a stake-out or whatnot. A police officer is looking for specific violations of the law and they do not see everything, nor do they really need to since their physical presence can in itself be a deterrent (but not always).
A security camera stays where it is, 24/7. Its mechanical eye watches everyone and everything that happens within its field of vision. It doesn't miss a thing.
So far that sounds like an argument for the cameras, but it's not. This is a "slippery slope." Sure, the cameras seem harmless. They may even help deter some criminals, maybe, but then what? Will the government then say, well, domestic violence is up in this particular neighborhood, so we are going to fit the cameras with infrared and listening-in capabilities, etc. etc. etc.
I'd rather have more neighborhood watches and more tiplines that allow the police to be where they need to be to prevent crime. I'd rather carry a firearm to defend myself and my family (which I do), than rely on someone else, whom I do not know nor necessarily trust, sitting behind a desk watching the monitors.
As I've said before, one of the founding principles of this country is self reliance. This is yet another step away from that.
The other question is this, how does this square with the 4th ammendment?
QUOTE The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Doesn't seem to fit very well to me.
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citydweller 6/5/08 2:29 PM | Good call on the 4th amendment, Rural.
That being said, though, the real issue for me is the disincentive that cameras and similar measures create in regards to individual responsibility. Whether it's to the camera or the person watching it, we are yielding our responsibility for ourselves, our families, our neighbors, our property, the civility of our society and, ultimately, our governance.
"We The People" wasn't just meant to be nice sounding opening line. It was meant to define us as a society that stood unified along certain lines, acting together as citizens. Surrendering the responsibility for those unified acts, especially to an invisible entity that operates unseen, is the beginning of an intellectual surrender of our belief in the very foundations of the Constitution.
Can't really go anywhere good from there, thinks me.
QUOTE We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America. |
grieker 6/5/08 3:25 PM | QUOTE(tugrad @ Jun 5 2008, 01:30 PM) [snapback]397694[/snapback]
Not all of us are so willing to give up our basic civil rights.
What civil right would that be? You have no right to privacy when you are out in the public. I can walk up to you and take a photo of you if I so desire.
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harv1 6/5/08 5:40 PM | You are absolutely correct about that Grieker... but if you, the photographed, know the "right" people or from the "right" neighborhood" or have your own security force, guess who will win out? |
Rural Conservative 6/5/08 6:06 PM | QUOTE(grieker @ Jun 5 2008, 03:25 PM) [snapback]397739[/snapback]
What civil right would that be? You have no right to privacy when you are out in the public. I can walk up to you and take a photo of you if I so desire.
Of course, you are a private citizen, not the government. There's a difference there. The government has no right to be taking pictures/video of me when I've done nothing wrong and there's been no warrant put out for same.
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Kate 6/5/08 9:52 PM | QUOTE(charlie_crystle @ Jun 5 2008, 12:13 PM) [snapback]397638[/snapback] Here's a questions; we have 60,000 people in Lancaster. How many are active criminals? 100? 600? 6000? Let's say it's 6000. Does that justify putting the entire population under full time surveillance?
What about the non-resident population who come to Lancaster to ply their "trade" and then leave? Have you forgotten that one murder last year involved an individual from Philadephia and one from Baltimore.
Question for you Charlie - did you vote Dem in last year's city council race? I'm guessing that you did. The second highest vote recipient is now executive director of the Safety Coalition. Would you have voted differently had you been aware of this?
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grieker 6/6/08 8:29 AM | QUOTE(Rural Conservative @ Jun 5 2008, 06:06 PM) [snapback]397800[/snapback] Of course, you are a private citizen, not the government. There's a difference there. The government has no right to be taking pictures/video of me when I've done nothing wrong and there's been no warrant put out for same.
While I ususally agree with you, on this you are flat wrong. Anyone, anywhere in public can video you and/or photograph you.
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tugrad 6/6/08 4:31 PM | QUOTE(grieker @ Jun 5 2008, 03:25 PM) [snapback]397739[/snapback]
What civil right would that be? You have no right to privacy when you are out in the public. I can walk up to you and take a photo of you if I so desire.
Guess you missed the post about the 4th amendment.
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gp80mac 6/6/08 4:50 PM | How does videotaping = search and seizure?
That document was written before videos... so its all in interpretation. Yes we can have 49,000 tiplines, but as long as "no one saw nuthin' " then the cameras are needed to put some of these scumbags where they belong. |
Rural Conservative 6/6/08 10:01 PM | QUOTE(grieker @ Jun 6 2008, 08:29 AM) [snapback]397962[/snapback]
While I ususally agree with you, on this you are flat wrong. Anyone, anywhere in public can video you and/or photograph you.
Well you're allowed to disagree. As long as you don't mind being wrong.
Just teasing.
QUOTE(gp80mac @ Jun 6 2008, 04:50 PM) [snapback]398368[/snapback] How does videotaping = search and seizure?
That document was written before videos... so its all in interpretation. Yes we can have 49,000 tiplines, but as long as "no one saw nuthin' " then the cameras are needed to put some of these scumbags where they belong.
Yes, indeed, the document pre-dates videos; however, a lot can be done with a video camera these days if they are properly equipped. A video camera could easily violate the search, but would have to be followed up for the seizure.
I have a feeling that if any of the founding fathers were to be alive today, they would feel very strongly against the idea of government sponsored video survielance. Remember, it didn't take much to get them fired up. They went to war over a 3% tax.
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gsmart 6/6/08 10:13 PM | QUOTE(Rural Conservative @ Jun 6 2008, 10:01 PM) [snapback]398428[/snapback] Yes, indeed, the document pre-dates videos; however, a lot can be done with a video camera these days if they are properly equipped. A video camera could easily violate the search, but would have to be followed up for the seizure.
I have a feeling that if any of the founding fathers were to be alive today, they would feel very strongly against the idea of government sponsored video survielance.
I suspect the Founding Fathers might have liked the idea.
The drawbacks of video are also its benefits. Search and seizure might have involved the planting of evidence, likely was used specifically to harass and keep the population in line. The latter is the only thing in common with video - which, in fact, can disprove the allegations against you, hold the authorities to a higher standard.
But beyond that, the public likes video cameras. There are neighborhoods clamoring for these things; if the main objection to cameras is that no one's watching the watchers - that those monitoring the feeds and responsible for storage aren't city employees - then it's incumbent upon them to figure out a way to pay for it. Because it ain't cheap.
For me, the question isn't whether it violates the Constitution - it's whether it works; as in, reducing crime. Are clearance rates higher? Is the city safer because of it? And if the answer is "yes," then I think it's incumbent upon those who oppose cameras - from a civic standpoint - to either come up with an alternative that achieves the same thing.
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gsmart 6/6/08 10:48 PM | QUOTE(Rural Conservative @ Jun 6 2008, 10:20 PM) [snapback]398443[/snapback]
Yeah, but Gil, don't forget, you are a nutjob.
Yeah yeah.
So tell me - are you one of those rural conservatives with a Ron Paul sign? I like those kind of rural conservatives...
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Rural Conservative 6/6/08 11:03 PM | QUOTE(gsmart @ Jun 6 2008, 10:48 PM) [snapback]398451[/snapback]
Yeah yeah.
So tell me - are you one of those rural conservatives with a Ron Paul sign? I like those kind of rural conservatives...
Nah, the phantom sign hasn't shown up on my lawn...yet...it probably will eventually...though I don't usually do the political sign thing...kinda tacky.
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twinmom 6/6/08 11:48 PM | QUOTE(gsmart @ Jun 6 2008, 10:13 PM) [snapback]398439[/snapback] For me, the question isn't whether it violates the Constitution - it's whether it works; as in, reducing crime. Are clearance rates higher? Is the city safer because of it? And if the answer is "yes,"
Is the answer yes?
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citizen-too 6/6/08 11:56 PM | QUOTE(dragonrider @ Jun 4 2008, 07:36 PM) [snapback]397310[/snapback] Let me guess these safety zones are upper income white neighbor hoods.
Look at the locations of the current cameras. They are not in the upper income white neighborhoods.
I live in what used to be an average income white neighborhood. People are moving out of the high crime areas into this area. I don't have a problem with it except, some bring the crime along with them. I now live in a average income, mixed color and relatively low crime neighborhood. We keep our eyes open and report what does not appear normal for the area.
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