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Off course this has always been the intent to remove rights from gays, Some will openly admit that that is their intent others need to stoop to this type of subterfuge. obviously if the intent was to protect marriage the first thing you would look at would be the astronomical rates of divorce and the rampant cohabitation. These two items are destroying marriage by heterosexuals for heterosexuals.



I wrote in a previous blog about a letter to the editor in the NY Times which really struck me. Incarcerated criminals have more rights to marry than I do. They do not have the right to vote even after release on federal crimes. But they can get married even while still incarcerated, Rapist, spouse abusers, pedophiles, child abusers, mass murderers all can get married even while incarcerated but I who has never been convicted or charged with any crime whose only fault is loving someone of the same gender can never marry.



This type of subterfuge of naming a bill of to make it palatable has been a tool in use for a least two decades. One needs only listen to the sponsors to hear the true meaning of the bills.

This whole gay marriage thing is really starting to get boring,

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special rights of white male heterosexuals

Actually the bill also says no to conferring any rights to civil unions which could have a significant erosion of rights not just for homosexuals but also heterosexuals in terms of adoption, hospital visitation, inheritance company benefits such as health insurance. But your ignorance of facts is as profound as your statements are lacking LDB perhaps you should find time to educate yourself before speaking

But hey I do agree that all this fighting for special rights is tiresome so why not extend the special rights of white male heterosexuals to all people then you can be unbothered.

Subterfuge? There is no subterfuge about it; the amendment states that marriage is defined as being between 1 man and 1 woman and that this status will not be extended to any other combination. Sounds straight foreword to me.

Gay unions are not recognized now in any way so how are rights being taken away from this group? They're not, but it sounds better to say they are, gays hope to get victim status to further their cause.

This whole gay marriage thing is really starting to get boring, state laws says NO, so NO it is! Calling people that don't go along with the gay lifestyle names is childish and very transparent.

So are your posts that say the SAME thing every time you mention the topic. How about discussing it openly, not reiterating the same point time after time after time. . . . we get it already. Now if you really want to convince anybody that you are right, broaden your points, tell us more. Just don't beat us over the head with the same info each and every post.

That goes both ways.

Subterfuge? There is no subterfuge about it; the amendment states that marriage is defined as being between 1 man and 1 woman and that this status will not be extended to any other combination. Sounds straight foreword to me.

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Gay unions are not recognized now in any way so how are rights being taken away from this group? They're not, but it sounds better to say they are, gays hope to get victim status to further their cause.



[size="3"]This whole gay marriage thing is really starting to get boring, state laws says NO, so NO it is! Calling people that don't go along with the gay lifestyle names is childish and very transparent.

How many letters to the editors were written by these gay haters?

How many protests were organized by these haters?

...Becuase to want to have my relationship treated equally with yours is just childish and tiresome...

Sorry Rural you construed my post as response to you it was to LDB who did characterize my desire for equal rights as boring and childish.

As far as most conservative christians and conservative churches reaching out to homosexuals I would most strongly disagree. I have heard enough from conservative christians that can only be characterized as hate. Such as the recent politician who said gays desire for equal rights are worse than Islamic terrorists How can I characterize such a statement as anything but hate. Or the minister that likes to go around saying God Hates Fags. Or Pastor Hagee who blamed the Huricane Katrina on a gay pride event in New Orleans. Or Pastor Falwell and Robertson who said gays were the cause of 9/11 If this is reaching out in love its a very perverted love.

Thats my personal story not some media with a spin. If thats is love you can have it.

That goes both ways.

Typical liberal talking point...If you disagree with someone, you must hate them.

Typical liberal talking point...If you disagree with someone, you must hate them.

Sheesh...My wife told me tonight that she doesn't want a dog, but I want a dog...we disagree...that must mean we hate each other.

I have had several friends over the years who chose to live a homosexual lifestyle. Note the word "friends" in that sentence...obviously, I must hate them if they are my friends. They knew I disagreed with their lifestyle, but we never made it an issue. We've lost touch over time, but I know if we were to meet again, it would still be as friends.

Do I think homosexuals should be allowed to marry? Let me ask a different question, why would they need to? I have asked that question before and never recieved a compelling answer.

Do I think the government should get involved in the matter? I really don't think so. In my oppinion, marriage should be the perview of whatever religion the persons in question belong to. The Government has their hands in peoples' business as it is.

Do I think God recognizes the union of a homosexual couple whether they claim to be married or not? Well, that's His business, not mine.

I believe homosexuality is a sin; however, I also believe murder, rape, incest, lust, gluttony, gossip, slander, etc. are sins. No one sin is any worse in God's eyes than another. Jesus Himself said "it is not the healthy who need a physician, but the sick." Funny...seems to me that he was falsely accused too...Seems to me He also said that the greatest commandment is to "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind, and the second is like unto it, Love your neighbor as yourself."

So Gil (and any of you others out there who want to try to twist everything into an emotional argument by calling someone a hatemonger when they disagree with you), they are certainly some people out there who are deluded in their thinking, who do hate others based upon their choices in life. They are not indicative of the bulk of Conservative Christians. Most of us do our best to reach out to anyone struggling with sin of any kind, through the love of Christ, not through any idea that we are better than they.

Your tactics are very tiresome and more than a little childish.

That's a very interesting point. This happens with all sorts of issues, not just ones relating to homosexuality. To me, it's a red flag when someone wants to short-circuit any meaningful dialogue by labeling those who disagree as "haters". Maybe they are afraid there is some sense in what the other person has to say, so they want to cut it off before that person has a say. Maybe they don't want to accept that an issue is not neatly black and white--gray areas are hard to navigate. Or maybe they have a vested interest in keeping the matter from being discussed rationally and settled amicably. At any rate, it's a roadblock to honest dialogue.

Is the community helped or hindered by gay marriage? At best it's a push, but it may not be a push, it could be a negative, is it worth it to experiment?

Do you mean is it worth experimenting with a tradition in which 50% of all heterosexual marriages end in failure?
I would say it is a prime example of a tradition that needs to be experimented with, in more ways than one.

My marriage is doing great. Sorry if yours is not.......

Hey, I take my wife with me wherever I go...but somehow she keeps finding her way back.

Lemme guess, you have one of the t-shirts that says on the back "If you can read this, the b*tch fell off"?

My marriage is doing great. Sorry if yours is not.......

Would your marriage be worse off if homosexuals were allowed to marry? I would expect not. I think that is the point the original poster was trying to make.

My point is very simple. There are many marriages out there that are doing great. Too often I see the picture painted that marriages are in trouble, or need fixed. It is a blanket statement that is not accurate, in my opinion.........

Transgendered people have the highest percentage of hate crimes against them of any minority and most acts of violence are massive overkill where the victim is repeatedly stabbed and beaten.

How can you be BORN transgendered?

There are many marriages out there that are doing great. .

I have had several friends over the years who chose to live a homosexual lifestyle. Do I think homosexuals should be allowed to marry? Let me ask a different question, why would they need to? I have asked that question before and never recieved a compelling answer.

You know what Wonder you have crossed the line. you are now on my permanent ignore. I post a response and list a site which references one murdered transexual every month as hate crime and this is your response. I finally agree this topic is useless and I will leave the gay baiting posts to others. see ya

Don't half of all marriages end in divorce? With that in mind how many are not divorcing for the sake of the children or for another reason?
While many marriages are doing great I think most are not.

The point is, there are many out there that are doing very well. Whether it is a majority or not, the picture seems to be portrayed that all marriages are bad. This is not the case....

You know that I have agreed with all of your posts thusfar but I believe, IMOO, that you may be a bit hypersensative to that question. I can't state whether she meant any malice or not but IMO I don't think that she did. I think it was an honest question trying to understand a subject that not many have any knowledge of. I am gay and hang around T people and I don't even get the entire thing. I am being completely honest here. I am constantly asking them questions. They are also very patient with me because they know that I don't mean them harm-I am trying to educate myself. Allow her to be educated. I think I would reconsider the question and answer with the utmost honesty as you always do. For example-some men have a sex change and become a woman to be with a woman. I don't understand this and am still striving to do so. You know what I mean?

Perhaps you are right, if so I apologize. I tend to get cranky sometimes. But you have to admit that a recurring theme from the right is you can not be born gay or transgendered you chose to be gay or transgendered. When I was talking about the death of many transgedered and violence against transgendered and am asked that question again it did seem to get my ire.



No man can have a sex change to be with a woman!!!!! He could never get surgical approval if that was his reason. There used to be a rumor about me that I became a woman becuase my wife was a lesbian and I thought I could keep her that way. I laughed my !profanity! off when I heard that one. Some Male to Female MTF transexuals remain attracted to women post transition I count myself among that group. Some Female to Male Transexuals remain attracted to men after surgery. As a lesbian you must know that gender and sexual orientation are not synonymous.



How can one be born transgendered. I don't know nor does anyone else. I presume the same way one can be born intersexual, born with ambigous or both genitals. The brain is a very complex organ but just another organ with equal variatioan in structure as any other organ. Some people are made transsexual I am sure but this is at a very early age, gender identity is set at a very young age under age 4 from what I have read. Wether I was born transgendered or abused into by a father that sexually, physically and verbally abused me from my earliest memories is mute. Becuase now it is immutable , it is who I am and I better love who I am as this is the only life I can have.



Is that better BigMac



Last night I read in the NYTimes about a Indian couple. she was pregnant and they were in their early 20's A crowd broke into their house and kicked and beat her until he awoke then the drug them both out and strangled them both on the edge of town. Their crime they violated a religous law that says a man and a woman from the same town can not marry. This is what happens when you have religous laws governing marriage Of course in middle east you have men being killed for just being in the company of a known gay man.

There were at least nine Senate Republicans and more than that number of Senate Democrats who wanted a good reason to vote against the bill or weaken it dramatically.

Got that? It was a bill not just to ”protect marriage” - it was specifically designed to strip rights from gays.

Can you feel the love of another conservative christian reaching out to me. Let me bask in its glow awhile. Why it feels as warm as a fall freezing rain.

That's not rain! Is dark sarcasm still allowed?

This really is the story. This bunch in Harrisburg either are anti-traditional values or have them and are acting like they've had orchidectomies to try to appear to be sophisticated and modern, which makes them scoundrels. May we have the names please, of the ones who wanted to weaken the bill? It sounds like Harrisburg again needs more input from the people, i.e. the pay raise.

Actually, I think that the real story is how the false concept of "traditional values" has been placed into so many people's cognitive vocabulary. "Traditional values" is a propaganda motif. It is used by those who wish to simplify the complex cultural world into a nifty little "right and wrong" worldview. This is done to attract the endorsement of non-critical thinkers. Actually, I would go one step further and suggest that it is designed to turn people into non-critical thinkers.

Anyone who has even briefly studied values or culture in American history realizes quickly that there is very little "traditional" about them. Most people who are discussing "traditonal values" really just mean the values of their parents. And I am not about to carry on another generation of making all the same mistakes they did.

Culture and values always, always, always, always evolve. There's no getting around that. Politicians who make any claim about enacting legislation regarding "tradtional values" are fools. They are either non-critical thinkers with a limited understanding of the world and American history, or worse, Gil is correct and they are using "traditonal values" legislation as a tool to make all the sheeple go, "Baahhhhh."

Think scientifically. I am not talking about hormonal wash...whatever that is...I am talking about DNA [programmed at the time of conception].

In my opinion there is no good reason for a person to become something they are not. That is carrying self-mutilation to the extreme. I am talking about DNA testing so that people can be or become what they ARE programmed to be. That may be true of you, in my way of thinking, Dragonrider, so please do not see offense.

I know of a situation where a person went through the whole transgender process. HE believed his family was adjusted but they were not. I happened to be in a position, or in several positions at the time, where I saw proof that the family was not adjusted. The "adjustment" was just another fantasy the subject needed to believe in his [to her] delusional self. Why not start the process in the beginning, so that innocent people do not have to suffer for the wants and desires of one person who could have been helped. The information was not available even 20 years ago but now it is out there so there is no excuse for the next generation. We need to deal with real issues and not legislate a continuance on the wrong path.

I realize there is confusion and turmoil in the homosexual community. We need to provide appropriate medical and psychological care so that real issues are dealt with....bullying of individuals from a young age on up, dysfunctional families, acohol/substance abuse and physical and sexual abuse of children. Then we can return to the time when there were fewer individuals who believed the only answer was the homosexual lifestyle. Life choices should not be so easy for anyone by the way. I am not just picking on those who choose the homosexual lifestyle.

Okay. You discounted what I said immediately, Dragonrider. I am done. It could be that someone knows something.

If no one listens, I move on.....

UNTIL THE NEXT TIME.

I agree with what you are saying (in my case, anyways). Here's the situation though, Wonder. I was on the adoption block at birth. I was born at a private hospital with little funding especially for something of this nature. My biological mother was 14 when she had me. I was adopted into A VERY STRICT Catholic family (they still had mass in Latin) and said the rosary together as a family,etc. Where did that leave me at that point????



If I had DNA testing as an infant and they found predominant male instead of female and rectified the problem I would have been much happier so far and my new parents would have been much more loving and accepting of me. It sure is easier to live with yourself and others when you know exactly who you are. I'll give you that much. I'm here today by no choice of my own and I was born that way and you know it. I have two children-one is 27 years old and one is seven years old. I'm not about to put them through all of that. I, on the other hand, think of others besides myself and how I feel. You may not agree with homosexuality but all I'm asking is that you tolerate it. I don't push myself off on anyone outside of cyberspace-honestly. I know that you think you feel an obligation to your God to spread his word but I don't think that's what he meant. He did say that he is the one to judge others and not man. Let's say that I kill myself because I constantly got harrassed by you and I had nowhere to turn. What would that make you then? We should teach all of this world to love one another as I have loved you and let the final "scientific explanations" be left to God. This world would be a much nicer place if everyone just got along and focused on themselves and no one else. Would you at least agree with that?


Please understand that I mean nothing to harm you-I'm merely just giving hypothetical situations to help understand where it is that I am coming from. You know that I am okay with you and have no hard feelings. You also know that this is a VERY sensitive subject for me. Thanks for the posts.........

Sorry but I think your posted comments, ( as I highlighted) speak to a psychological causation for your gender confusion and not genetic or hormonal. My guess is that you play the female, ( submissive ) role in your relationships as a way to receive the love, attention and acceptance you feel you missed as a child.

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[size="3"]Predominantly male? Genetically there is no predominantly, you either are a male or you are not.
Did you catch the OW show a few weeks back? A woman changing her identity to a man with hormone therapy, now pregnant. That person made me sick, and the real shame is that there will be a child involved in that pycho sexual behavior.

Oh, and by the by, if you don't want someone to think you're quoting them, don't use their wording.

I am sorry you have had bad experiences with churches in your past. The experiences you listed are sad examples of how not to show love for another person.

However, assuming that all Christians are like that just because some Christians were unkind to you is stereotyping. Say a person visits the ocean for the first time, having never actually seen the ocean, but having been told that there are white sandy beaches on the ocean, and the place they visit happens to be lined with rocks instead of sand. They could assume that what they have been told is a lie, or they could keep looking for another beach.

Would you like to share your viewpoint on the issue and discuss it or would you just like to jump in on our discussion and make disparaging marks against me?

All the homophobes use the exact same wording, so it's impossible to not use the wording they used. It's a script. LOL you really cracked me up.





Then perhaps you should extend an invitation to dragonrider to visit your church with you to show that your church isn't a group of hatred.

That would prove the point easily. Then dragonrider would know if you are telling the truth or just covering it up. Maybe you would pick up a new member if it was loving and inviting like you say it is.

I had a homosexual cousin who died of AIDS in 1990. He was also a strict practicing Catholic. When he became too ill to attend Mass, one of the priests and several members of his Congregation came to his house and performed Mass there. That is an example of the kind of love that exists in some churches.

Lemme guess, you have one of the t-shirts that says on the back "If you can read this, the b*tch fell off"?

LDB, I have seen many reasoned discussions here from the left to which you reply with some non sequetir or hate. So I think the same can be said of the right.



Rural I have found a church but you can be sure it is not a conservative church nor do I include and conservative christians among my friends, You see the problem arises thus, A conservative christian says my "lifestyle" is a "choice". That this choice can and should be legislated against just like polygamy, beastiality or pedophilia.

Now first and foremost I see Homosexuality and transgenderism as something I was born with . I never chose nor did any of my gay friends chose to be gay or transgendered. They just are gay , just as you are straight. you never chose to be straight. Now when I am told that conservative christians want to legislate against homosexuality and I know I have no choice but to be what I am I hear them saying they want to legislate me out of existance to in effect end my life. Secondly when I am repeatedly compared to polygamists and pedophiles , I feel greatly insulted. So I respond with rightous indignation becuase I feel threatened and insulted. This is not hate this is rightous indignation for my life being denigrated and my rights being legislated away.

When I came out I was shot at, someone tried to run me over with a car, My tires were slashed, nails place under my tires, hate messages put on my car and workplace. I have a real reason to feel physically threatened by the response from the christian conservative Transgendered people have the highest percentage of hate crimes against them of any minority and most acts of violence are massive overkill where the victim is repeatedly stabbed and beaten.

My point is very simple. There are many marriages out there that are doing great. Too often I see the picture painted that marriages are in trouble, or need fixed. It is a blanket statement that is not accurate, in my opinion.........

How can you be BORN transgendered?

They also tell me that no other man has ever made love to them as completely as I have................since you felt the need to know...........

Or it could be that some people are comfortable with the world they grew up in. Why try to box everyone in to such a narrow view of the world?

Sorry but I think your posted comments, ( as I highlighted) speak to a psychological causation for your gender confusion and not genetic or hormonal. My guess is that you play the female, ( submissive ) role in your relationships as a way to receive the love, attention and acceptance you feel you missed as a child.

Predominantly male? Genetically there is no predominantly, you either are a male or you are not.

Once again, you are way off the mark. I know that you try your hardest but you aren't even in the same town as the ballpark let alone the same ballpark. I was supposed to be a man. All my friends are straight men. I don't have many gay friends. I identify as a female in body only. As for my tending to be like a female in my relationships to receive the love, attention and acceptance that I didn't receive as a child......well.........way off the mark, sorry. You are completely wrong. If you really need to know.......I have been with over at least 60 or 70 women (almost all of them have been straight or Bisexual) with the exception of 2. All straight women say there's just something about me that intriques them and they are totally attracted to me. They also tell me that no other man has ever made love to them as completely as I have................since you felt the need to know...........

I don't know who you are sproutville but I think I am in love.

Are you saying that homosexuals need medical and psychological care to overcome bullying , alcohol/drug abuse, sexual abuse etc in order to become straight. Are you saying you know of some genetic test to identify gender identity beyond genetic test of xx and xy.

And I bet you go to a conservative church every sunday to get that big ole sunny disposition.

My research and learning tells me that there are environmental factors [nurture], which lead children to make the decision toward the homosexual lifestyle.

wife = the partner of a man in a marriage.

wife= the female partner in a marriage
In my marriage, we're both wives.
Don't really care if you like it or not, but you don't have the right to define it for the world. Whether you like it or don't like it, she's my wife. Nothing you can say or do will ever change that.
DNA tests cannot predict a fetus' gender until the 5th-6th week of pregnancy. Does gender exist before that. Why can DNA tests not determine it?

Are you interesting in a tutoring job?

dragonrider asked me: I say: NO, NO, NO. I am saying that there needs to be DNA testing to determine the actual sex of each baby [you are either MALE OR FEMALE shortly after conception takes place, not part one or the other or both...even though certain other organs may be present or partially present... YOU are conceived as ONLY MALE or FEMALE. The presence of other organs may confuse but DNA tests do not lie ].

I was saying that everyone needs psychological care who needs it. I am saying that every child needs education and treatment in overcoming bullying, aspects of alcohol/drug or sexual abuse [in their environment], in order to be whatever they were born to be. We have to educate every child because we do not always know which children are being bullied, from household environments where alcohol/drug abuse or physical or sexual abuse is happening. Up until a few years ago, schools had very specific curriculae on these topics but as money gets tighter those aspects of education are seen as "frills" instead of the necessities they really are.

My research and learning tells me that there are environmental factors [nurture], which lead children to make the decision toward the homosexual lifestyle. The things that can be controlled include making all children resistive to bullying and the types of reactive behaviors associated with early life trauma.



BigMac2 I believe [now that you said it on here], that you believe you could be a DNA male who was not identified as such. I believe you are saying that your life is such that now you feel it is too late [and you are unwilling], to go back and change, because it would impact too many others in your life. You are acting out of concern and sensitivity for everyone else in your life and see no need to "rock the boat" because you are comfortable with your life as it is. You are not defensive about homosexuality and have your own views. All that I can say is that you seem very conciencious and rational. The religion aspect has to be between you and God, because none of us is allowed to prounounce judgement. That happens on Judgement Day. In your case, I am very happy that we are not allowed to judge. I can go so far as to say that I understand your thinking from your viewpoint. Your particular profile [as given by you], supports my premise of "not being born homosexual". We are not talking about promiscuity so I am almost ignoring the "60 to 70 females you made love to".
wife = the partner of a man in a marriage.

Big M

Pretty funny and I'm sure a lot of woman would appreciate you teaching their men. Heaven knows they could use it!!!! Uh if my husband is reading this - just kidding.

Actually, I think that the real story is how the false concept of "traditional values" has been placed into so many people's cognitive vocabulary. "Traditional values" is a propaganda motif. It is used by those who wish to simplify the complex cultural world into a nifty little "right and wrong" worldview. This is done to attract the endorsement of non-critical thinkers. Actually, I would go one step further and suggest that it is designed to turn people into non-critical thinkers.

Anyone who has even briefly studied values or culture in American history realizes quickly that there is very little "traditional" about them. Most people who are discussing "traditonal values" really just mean the values of their parents. And I am not about to carry on another generation of making all the same mistakes they did.

Culture and values always, always, always, always evolve. There's no getting around that. Politicians who make any claim about enacting legislation regarding "tradtional values" are fools. They are either non-critical thinkers with a limited understanding of the world and American history, or worse, Gil is correct and they are using "traditonal values" legislation as a tool to make all the sheeple go, "Baahhhhh."

Wonder,
What you are stating is totally physical. You feel that what a persons body looks like on the outside should determine what they are. Everything I hear from the gays is how they feel mentally, emotionally and how their hormones dictate what they are. These are not things we can see on the outside. Only they can feel what is on the inside. Which is more important how someone looks or how they feel?

Sorry, but if you are talking emotionally and so on then we get into the nurture part. Since you refuse to believe homosexuality is not curable with therapy, you have set up an impossible conundrum for yourself.

BigMac2. DNA testing at birth would give an indication of male or female, period. I cannot help anyone to understand it, if they will not study the whole pre-natal process from conception to birth. The rest is nurture/environment/psychological/training, etc.. The type of hormonal condition you report has to do with environment, not genetics.

Yep we sure have evolved, from community based concepts of acceptable behavior to the individual rules. Gay marriage is all about,you you you its all about what you want and not about what is best for our community.

Ya we're evolving all right, lets review some of those changes; more and more young people with behavioral problems and psychological issues, increasing incarceration rates, lack of respect for private property, violence, anti social behavior. Children need to be chaperoned at bus stops, homes must be lock, security devises on retail items. All this a curing during a time of unprecedented prosperity.

Wonder what are the psychological nurturing conditions that lead sheep to choose to become gay. Do we have reparative therapy for gay sheep.

Wonder what are the psychological nurturing conditions that lead sheep to choose to become gay. Do we have reparative therapy for gay sheep.

All the homophobes use the exact same wording, so it's impossible to not use the wording they used. It's a script.

Then perhaps you should extend an invitation to dragonrider to visit your church with you to show that your church isn't a group of hatred.

That would prove the point easily. Then dragonrider would know if you are telling the truth or just covering it up. Maybe you would pick up a new member if it was loving and inviting like you say it is.

And the penguins in Central Park

Do you ever feel like one of those horses drawing a cart with the blinders on the side of your head. Cause thats the way you come off

Well, there are several problems with your mode of thought and rationality.

First, if indeed our culture is going to heck, it is a result of the culture before ours. So why make the same mistake twice, or three times? A hallmark of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and over while expecting different outcomes. If the way we are today is based upon past actions, than why mkae it spiral further downward?

Second, most of your perceptions are based on limited observation and are highly presentist and media-driven. Behavioral problems, psychological issues, etc. have the appearance of increasing because we simply recognize them more than we ever have in the past, not because they occur with greater frequency. It is also largely presentist. Go to the public library or the historical society and pick out some microfilmed newspapers...grab an issue from when you thought the world was perfect, and read it...you will find murder, rape, incest, violence, thieves, etc. as well as a whole host of problems that we no longer have like smallpox and lynchings.

Third, all these problems are occurring at a time of unprecedented prosperity? What a load of crap. Prosperity for whom? We aren't all prospering at the same rate...and most of the very real problems that you have identified are a direct result of this...not because the gays want to get hitched

1./ Based upon what I see in your writing, I would suggest that my research is thorough and sound and I cannot see proof of the same in your writing. I do not write nasty comments thinking I refute anything you say. That is only done out of defensiveness. I see that in your posts.

2./ You are not married to each other, therefore, neither one of you is a wife.

3./ Why would anyone want to do a DNA test for gender at that stage, anyway?

Sorry, but if you are talking emotionally and so on then we get into the nurture part. Since you refuse to believe homosexuality is not curable with therapy, you have set up an impossible conundrum for yourself.

BigMac2. DNA testing at birth would give an indication of male or female, period. I cannot help anyone to understand it, if they will not study the whole pre-natal process from conception to birth. The rest is nurture/environment/psychological/training, etc.. The type of hormonal condition you report has to do with environment, not genetics.

I agree.

Wonder what are the psychological nurturing conditions that lead sheep to choose to become gay. Do we have reparative therapy for gay sheep.

Nope, not about me at all. I'm not gay. It's about my uncle and his husband. My two neighbors, the two guys who own the nice house on the edge of town, the girl that I sat next next to in homeroom in high school who I heard got married somewhere in the Carribean last year to another girl from my high school, it's about my good friend (who everyone knows is gay, but still hasn't come out), it's about some of my students (some of whom are open, while others are not), it's about the two ladies I passed yesterday in the grocery store (ya don't need gay-dar to spot some of them), it's about this one dude I know who I ride bikes with (everyone knows he's gay and living with a partner, but he never brings the partner along), it's about the more than a thousand kids I went to college with who were open about their orientation...etc, etc.



Ya' see...it really is about community...only difference is, MY community accepts everyone on equal terms and wishes to see them all enjoy equal rights and acceptance in this world...your community must be a little different. You are more than welcome to join my community. Doesn't cost a cent.

Just a friendly suggestion...I don't think, if I were in your shoes that I would want to use what is often considered to be one of the world's stupidest animals as an argument for your position. Not trying to be smart or anything, just saying it's a weak argument.

I didn't see this post until last night, and at that point, my head was hurting so badly I didn't have the energy to respond, but now I'm better, so here goes.

Secondly, I do not give out personal information over the internet (tons of reasons, most of which are logical, none of which I will go into because I know I'm likely to just be accused of evading anyway, so there isn't any point). Were she someone I knew in real life, she would probably already have been invited (I've invited homosexual friends to church, I know, shocking).

An animal outside its natural habitat acting differently than they do in the wild? How terribly surprising.

pssst, it happened there BECAUSE it happens in nature

There are tons upon tons of reports of it happening in nature alllll the time....

pastor or Prestonwood Baptists Megachurch in Texas resigned after being caught soliciting sex from a minor on the internet. More of those Family Values Marriage Saving Conservative Ministers I guess. Thank god he was not gay!!!!!!!!

So are you saying that every single person that attends a Baptist church, or this particular church is like this guy? If you truly believe this, then you are quite dim......

NO NO NO but there sure are a lot of baptists ministers and catholic priests involved sexual indiscretions with minors boys and girls and hiring prostitutes. Just kinda confuses me about all these conservative ministers being involved in sexual crimes.

Agreed. But in stark contrast to the acceptance and love you and your community professes you slander, demean, stereotype and insult anyone who dares to oppose gay marriage on this forum.

That's wonderful that he had a supportive church. Now, would your church do it? Would you, personally do it? Would you accept him into your church if you knew he was gay (and let's say celibate and devout to staying celibate) beforehand?

First you complain you don't understand. Then people use language you are accustomed to and you complain they are being mean to you.

Examples are given in positive terms and you don't get it. Examples are given that are similar to your own thinking and you whine about it.

Make up your mind already. There were attempts to speak to the homophobic bigots as adults and they couldn't follow the the conversation. It's put in their terms and they get insulted. Seriously, you can't have it both ways.

I have tried to be as respectful as I can to those who honestly want to learn and evolve. I have apologized even when I was not sure I was in the wrong giving the benefit of the doubt. I have shared of my life when asked even when painful. In return I have been treated with disrespect, demeaned, insulted and lack of love that has been professed.

You post your thoughts, here I didn't know you had any thoughts

The motivations of the pro-gay marriage forces become questionable in light of the fact that civil unions addressing in equities in healthcare, etc. were already recognized in California so marriage traditionally defined shouldn't threaten them. So people are left to conclude that there must be a hidden agenda.

It does wonders for the relationship between the gay community and others.

Yes, you have been...??! Allow me to pick up the world's tinest violin and play some background music for the last several posts. Just long enough for you to read this post then I'll switch to screamo for the responses.

The condescension is useful because helps the average person understand that those who are quick to let us know their ethearial IQs are as imperfect and miss the mark as do the rest of us. I actually like keeping this thread going because I like the title and the fact that "hate" and "hatred" appear many times as stereotypical labels angrily slapped on most Americans by militant homosexuals. Even in "progressive" California most people agreed to the hateful definition of marriage as a woman in covenant with a man, which doesn't bode well for homosexuals in other places in which the question may be placed on the ballot.

The motivations of the pro-gay marriage forces become questionable in light of the fact that civil unions addressing in equities in healthcare, etc. were already recognized in California so marriage traditionally defined shouldn't threaten them. So people are left to conclude that there must be a hidden agenda.

It does wonders for the relationship between the gay community and others.

It does wonders for the relationship between the gay community and others.

Hence, the problem. Why should the gay community have to have a "relationship" with the "others?" If they were truly equal, wouldn't they be a part of the same community

Since you aren't an authority on...well, anything, you are in no place to judge anything from my writing and I suggest your "research" is nothing more than a google search that desparately looks for something to agree with your distorted logic. Your lack of seeing does not signify a lack of existance. It just means you are either a) blinded by your hatred or b.) incapable of comprehension.

I remember being called on the carpet one time at work. Everyone was standing around talking about their weekends with their spouses and GF's and BF's , I shared what I did that weekend with my GF and was brought into the office. I was told that gay was sexual therefore could be considered sexual harrassment. I asked you mean becuase I said my GF and I went to church on Sunday you consider that sexual harassment to which he replied yes! I replied try it , I want to be a millionare.

I don't go to church. I am not a Christian. I had no trouble accepting him for who he was. He was one of the people I have most admired in my life.

Yes, you have been...??! Allow me to pick up the world's tinest violin and play some background music for the last several posts. Just long enough for you to read this post then I'll switch to screamo for the responses.

[b]Wrong again! Just saying. Wishing a thing is truth and then stating it as truth, does not make it so. It says something about you, but nothing about me.

Thanks for the prayers. I pray a lot for others and appreciate prayers that are said on my behalf.

Another right wing hypocrite takes a fall as Foella republican representative of NY and key supported of anti gay agenda bills resigns after charges of drunk driving and being involved in an extramarital affair that resulted in a child. The affair was hidden with the help of hush fund money provided by Ma and Pa.

How Family Values!!!!!!

I would guess they skip parts of the Bible at your church, dragonrider, or you would not go there. Do they talk about sex in your church, since you mention that "gay" and "straight" people attend your church? I admit that there are certain churches in the county I will not attend. I tend to believe that Bible teaching must be the basis of a church's program or something is lacking. If a church will not teach Biblical truth, then what is the point of the church? Even a murderer who comes to realize their sinful behavior, first has to admit the sin, knows they are incarcerated for the rest of their life, and seeks pardon of God. What is a church if some sins are not even addressed? How is that a Christian church? Educate me. "Your sins will be washed whiter than snow." First we have to admit and confess our sins. ALL of our sins. We do not get to pick and choose which parts of the Bible are true and which do not apply to us.

OK, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

If that is so, then why would you want to prevent him from having the same governmental rights that you have when it comes to marriage or civil unions? Are you more comfortable if they are called civil unions? Are you willing to accept it if it has a different name but gives the same rights and benefits that heterosexual couples have? If so, then why is the word "marriage" so different? The word "marriage" isn't even in the bible. It's implied and people are said to be bound to one another and even Christ attended a wedding festival, but what is so magical about the word "marriage" ?

Wonder,



Why does everything come back to sex with you. Are you obsessed with it or just extremely lacking. Please inquiring minds want to know.

I wonder why there were books left out of the bible in the first place, seems to me that none of the Christian churches use the whole bible, as it was originally drafted



That's one mighty big glass house

He's dead. His rights have been taken away since 1990.

It would be helpful if you would bother to read posts, instead of just attacking anyone and everyone. I have not once said I oppose gay marriage.

This thread still going? God gill, you be nothing without the gay marriage debate. Stop pretending, come out and embrace it.

So John McBush's Pastor Hagee thinks that God created Hitler to force the Jews to return to Israel. Can some one show me where in the bible it says that? And still McBush refuses to denounce Pastor Hagee.

Wonder, My church teaches the whole bible, we just interpret it differently than yours.

Wonder,
Why does everything come back to sex with you. Are you obsessed with it or just extremely lacking. Please inquiring minds want to know.

So John McBush's Pastor Hagee thinks that God created Hitler to force the Jews to return to Israel. Can some one show me where in the bible it says that? And still McBush refuses to denounce Pastor Hagee.

Or it could be that some people are comfortable with the world they grew up in. Why try to box everyone in to such a narrow view of the world?

Yes, you have been...??! Allow me to pick up the world's tinest violin and play some background music for the last several posts. Just long enough for you to read this post then I'll switch to screamo for the responses.

The condescension is useful because helps the average person understand that those who are quick to let us know their ethearial IQs are as imperfect and miss the mark as do the rest of us. I actually like keeping this thread going because I like the title and the fact that "hate" and "hatred" appear many times as stereotypical labels angrily slapped on most Americans by militant homosexuals. Even in "progressive" California most people agreed to the hateful definition of marriage as a woman in covenant with a man, which doesn't bode well for homosexuals in other places in which the question may be placed on the ballot.

The motivations of the pro-gay marriage forces become questionable in light of the fact that civil unions addressing in equities in healthcare, etc. were already recognized in California so marriage traditionally defined shouldn't threaten them. So people are left to conclude that there must be a hidden agenda.

It does wonders for the relationship between the gay community and others.

Now where is all the faux outrage from those who held Obama accountable for Wright's comments.

These are the same fools who would rather start a war with Iran

John McCain has some seriously screwed-up holy men surrounding him. First, there's the Rev. John Hagee, a hate-monger and certifiable loon who believes that Hurricane Katrina was God's judgment on New Orleans for planning a gay parade, calls Catholicism a "false cult system" that conspired with Hitler to exterminate the Jews, and believes that America's divine duty is to destroy Iran. Then there's the Rev. Rod Parsley, who garnishes his bigoted theology by calling Islam "the greatest religious enemy of our civilization and the world" and saying that Muhammad was "a mouthpiece of a conspiracy of spiritual evil."

bigstew, why all the hatred and disgust??? Did you read my post? I think it might calm things down for a bit........

The Bible is for so much more than teaching and rebuking, I am so sorry that you can not see that.

Hatred and disgust? Where did ya get that from?

Unbelievable, I have to ask, have you ever had relations??????????

I'm thinking it was a lame attempt at sarcasm I guess. LOL

Yeah, her posts get kinda confusing. I think she is trying to say that any woman who is sexually attracted to another woman (in our terms a lesbian) is really a man. And and man who is attracted to another man (our terms gay) is really a woman. I think that is why she has suggested that all babies have DNA testing to determine their biological gender.

Problem is that transgender is not not the same as gay. Many gay people are perfectly happy as the gender they were born as they just aren't attracted to members of the opposite sex.

We don't interpret the Bible at my church. When the Bible says that certain things are a sin, they are a sin. Bible truth is truth and not open to further interpretation.

We all know that McCain attended Hagee's church for years. Hagee was his mentor and friend. Hagee served on his campaign. Yes, the two deserve equal outrage!

Wonder,
Why does everything come back to sex with you. Are you obsessed with it or just extremely lacking. Please inquiring minds want to know.


Makita. I am not the person who mentioned that "gay" and "straight" go to his church. The terms have only to do with homosexuality and heterosexuality which are behaviors related to sexual relations and same or opposite sex. I am not the one who muddies the waters with political terms, but now I am accused of something or other because I discussed something else you did not agree with. Now you must attack me to make yourself feel better. That does not make the homosexual lifestyle choser look good at all. This tells me that there are bullies within the homosexual lifestyle community and I am being victimized by your attack.



Wonder,



I'm not homosexual. You mention straights or heterosexuality, and then use the terms as behaviors related to sexual relations, I'm not sure but I don't think this has anything to do with politics but what occurs in a normal relationship. I could be wrong.

I realize the Bible is for much more than teaching and rebuking. However, the Bible is not open to interpretation by different denominations. I was clarifying my stand and not limiting the scope of the Bible. Do not insert words or motivations into my writing [putting words into my mouth does not quite fit].



Makita. I do not subscribe to the terms, "gay"/homosexual and "straight"/heterosexual, because those are political terms which describe lifestyles associated with behavioral preference. Male and Female are biological terms. We end up talking apples and oranges when we substitute political terms for biological terms.

It's been a while since my wife and I had any sexual contact due to our busy lives. We've been intimate, but, there just hasn't been time for sex. That being the case, does that mean we aren't homosexual since it only counts during the actual act for the homophobes?

I saw a comedian that stated "Between work and the kids my wife and I haven't had time for sex. Does that mean I am asexual?"

It's been a while since my wife and I had any sexual contact due to our busy lives. We've been intimate, but, there just hasn't been time for sex. That being the case, does that mean we aren't homosexual since it only counts during the actual act for the homophobes?

. That's why good people have reason to pause.

Here's a suggestion: Cut your essays on talkback down to flippant remarks and you'll have more time for your partner.

Sorry, Nativeson, Sprouting's partner is also on TB Live and in person, so to speak. Funny, work and church seem to take much more of our time than than TB does. It's amazing how little time it takes to write an "essay" when you type 80 wpm

She seems to be saying that in saying heterosexual or homosexual you are talking about sexual acts as she does not see that a homosexual person exists . So when I say there homosexuals in my church she seems to be saying that I must talk about sexual acts becuase homosexuality is a sex act not a person.

I type 110 WPM but then need to go back and correct spelling...and those spaces that I cannot seem to figure out.

Yeah, I still can't figure out why you don't use the church as your mailing address-you would get things much quicker that way. (as you are there every day and sometimes more than once a day. I am witness to that firsthand.......)

I was at 120/97% in college, 17 years ago. I am probably closer to 100 when I am typing my own thoughts.





Yes, well, I sometimes get mail there with my name on it, but it is church mail, not mine Funny, my old church had to beg me to do C/Y group Bible study ... this church I am over-involved. Whodathunk? And, I am not in the building every day ... I lead a Bible Study in my house one night a week hehehe

Understand your viewpoint, yes Agree with your viewpoint never. My own research is quite extensive on top of a degree in biochemistry and contradicts your research. But we will just have to agree to disagree and I don't hate you for your lifestyle choice either.

I'm not obsessed enough with your sex life to want to know this much detail. Chances are Wonder doesn't spend a lot of time wondering about it either. Here's a suggestion: Cut your essays on talkback down to flippant remarks and you'll have more time for your partner.

And what would your reason be.

I type 110 WPM but then need to go back and correct spelling...and those spaces that I cannot seem to figure out.

My degree[s] are not in biochemistry but I have studied genetics and continue to look at things objectively. A good researcher will sustain their own beliefs when reading research findings and enjoy discovery. I fear this is not evident in any research I have read by certain groups, both Christian and the homosexual choice people. I tend to look for good science.

Enjoy the day.

My degree[s] are not in biochemistry but I have studied genetics and continue to look at things objectively. A good researcher will sustain their own beliefs when reading research findings and enjoy discovery. I fear this is not evident in any research I have read by certain groups, both Christian and the homosexual choice people. I tend to look for good science.



Enjoy the day.

A good researcher disregards their own beliefs when reading research findings of others and take as much joy in research that contradicts their beliefs as in research that supports their beliefs. But then that is reputable scientists and peer reviewed research neither of which have I seen you quote.

Understand your viewpoint, yes Agree with your viewpoint never. My own research is quite extensive on top of a degree in biochemistry and contradicts your research. But we will just have to agree to disagree and I don't hate you for your lifestyle choice either.

I have always found that experience is the best teacher. I know that I have been gay since birth and at birth didn't even know what a choice about sex was. I am who I am-tell them all to deal with it or shut the heck up. You are right on so many levels but you really are beating a dead horse. I know that you know I don't mean this offensively but at least we know the real truth.

The last time I went to a meeting on family values I was handed a brochure (lecturing me on family values) by a lady who now says she's slept with dozens of women. Then I was lectured on family values by a guy who's since been convicted of multiple counts of child molestation and possession of child pornography. So this "Heterosexuals are obsessed with sex and have orgies in their church services while gays are clean and pure as the wind driven snow" stuff falls flat. You're people just like the rest of us. The only difference being the lifestyle you want us to accept is listed in our reference for morality in the same category as lying, adultery, fornication, etc. That's why good people have reason to pause.

A good researcher disregards their own beliefs when reading research findings of others and take as much joy in research that contradicts their beliefs as in research that supports their beliefs. But then that is reputable scientists and peer reviewed research neither of which have I seen you quote.

Dragon,



Not when your dealing with religious zealots. There is no way but theirs. No amount of research, opinions or anything else matter to them. They are completely closed to everything but what they believe to be the truth. Thankfully they are a small group and the majority of the people find them as annoying as you do.

Could you please tell me what this supposed "lifestyle" is that you keep refrencing? I really want to know. You see, my "lifestyle" consists of getting up in the morning, going to work, coming home, having dinner, watching a little tv, spending some time on the internet, having conversations with my family about my day and theirs, going to bed and doing it all over again the next day. I can't understand exactly what this "lifestyle" holds that is any different from what I assumed others did. Do you do something different from this? Do you have wild sex parties or something? Do you have a dozen or so people over every night and plot how to take over the world? What exactly do you "straight homophobic" people do that is so different from what I do that would make my activities of daily living be labeled a "lifestyle" that should be looked down on?

I am also wondering about the homosexual "lifestyle". My "lifestyle" sounds a lot like yours just add some parenting responsibilities. Pretty boring stuff. I've got to imagine that it bores the heck out of the folks who think we hold sex parties every weekend.

Hope you got out to enjoy the beautiful weekend.

Yeah experience the homosexual lifestyle again today, went grocery shopping , cleaned my apartment, window shopped at a high gas milage car and made some sugar free jello. This homosexual lifestyle is pretty exciting. After all this excitemnt I might have to go to bed early.

Do you have wild sex parties or something? Do you have a dozen or so people over every night and plot how to take over the world? What exactly do you "straight homophobic" people do that is so different from what I do that would make my activities of daily living be labeled a "lifestyle" that should be looked down on?

Oh, Oh. I can't stand it. The horror. We experienced the "homosexual lifestyle" with another couple! We even included out children and one of our mother's. We went kayaking.

You can write "straight" and I know exactly what you mean and I write "homosexual lifestyle" and we're supposed to go through the pretense that you don't understand what I mean by that? I may be time to again write of your genetic superiority to me.

The point that you fail to understand the semiotics behind the usage of "homosexual lifestyle" only highlights your lack of critical thought.

Linguistics is a branch of science that attempts to sort out how humans understand and use language and how we manipulate that usage to send out symbolic meaning to others. This guy is one of the tops at understanding linguistics and, as a result, is also one of the tops at understanding the world and how it works.

To clarify how linguisitcs works you may want to try some experiments:

-whenever your wife/girlfriend is in another room yell, "Come here, b*tch." Don't worry, she will understand exactly who you mean.

-If you are white (I can only assume this by other posts), whenever you pass an African-american on the street say, "yo, my brother(sister).What's goin down?" Yes, he or she will greatly appreciate your acknowledgement that we all come from the same common ancestor and will inform you of how their life is going,

-whenever you buy something today say, "I want it now." This is only a simple request and people will be happy that you are clarifying your wishes.

Of course, linguistics is a branch of science. And I know that several people on this thread and others in the world like them have issues with science, so to be safe you may want to stay away from linguistics and crawl back into cave.

And just the same I am sure if I referred to heterosexuals as breeders and the breeder lifestyle no one would take offense.

Both sides have learned to use language so well that we are no longer talking to each other but sending loaded messages to our supporters.

I am also wondering about the homosexual "lifestyle". My "lifestyle" sounds a lot like yours just add some parenting responsibilities. Pretty boring stuff. I've got to imagine that it bores the heck out of the folks who think we hold sex parties every weekend.

Hope you got out to enjoy the beautiful weekend.

You can write "straight" and I know exactly what you mean and I write "homosexual lifestyle" and we're supposed to go through the pretense that you don't understand what I mean by that?.

Here's one I don't understand:

How does one know when children are "out"?

Still going.

We just went to a friend's house and had burgers/dogs. Nothing big. It was nice to have an extra day off though





What DO you mean by it? Seriously. I want to know exactly what this "homosexual lifestyle" you keep referring to is. I don't know of a "homosexual lifestyle". My lifestyle is no different from 99% of the lifestyles around here so I want to know exactly what it is you THINK homosexuals do that is so horrible.








That would be called a typo by the poster. It should have read "our", and anyone with any sense would have seen that. ....Maybe you were too hung up on a non-existant lifestyle to recognize a common typo.





still stupid

Here's one I don't understand:
How does one know when children are "out"?

The point that you fail to understand the semiotics behind the usage of "homosexual lifestyle" only highlights your lack of critical thought.

Linguistics is a branch of science that attempts to sort out how humans understand and use language and how we manipulate that usage to send out symbolic meaning to others. This guy is one of the tops at understanding linguistics and, as a result, is also one of the tops at understanding the world and how it works.

To clarify how linguisitcs works you may want to try some experiments:

-whenever your wife/girlfriend is in another room yell, "Come here, b*tch." Don't worry, she will understand exactly who you mean.
-If you are white (I can only assume this by other posts), whenever you pass an African-american on the street say, "yo, my brother(sister).What's goin down?" Yes, he or she will greatly appreciate your acknowledgement that we all come from the same common ancestor and will inform you of how their life is going. If you are black, a possibility since you are using the title of Richard Wright's novel as your pseudonym, then you may wish to say to every white person you pass, "Hey dude, what's shakin'? Have you ever been to a rally?" You, of course, would be referring to the Political Rally of Barack Obama, and there is no possibility that the white person would misundersand you.

-Ask every gay person you pass today on the street if they enjoy their "homosexual lifestyle." I am sure everyone will enjoy and admire your curiosity and well-wishes.
-whenever you buy something today say, "I want it now." This is only a simple request and people will be happy that you are clarifying your wishes.

Of course, linguistics is a branch of science. And I know that several people on this thread and others in the world like them have issues with science, so to be safe you may want to stay away from linguistics and crawl back into cave.

We just went to a friend's house and had burgers/dogs. Nothing big. It was nice to have an extra day off though

That would be called a typo by the poster. It should have read "our", and anyone with any sense would have seen that. ....Maybe you were too hung up on a non-existant lifestyle to recognize a common typo.

still stupid

So sorry didn't realize that your reading comprehension is so limited that a one letter typo impacts your ability to understand an entire sentence. Or is it that picking on typos is all you can do to deflect attention from your bigotry?

Ohh, a little sensitive, are we? Unlike 2fat2ride I'll assume you know a "faux pah" when you see one and spare you the linguistics lesson, impressive and well written as it is. It must hurt but you did just prove Rush Limbaugh right with your inability to laugh at yourself (and your fellow liberals' mistakes).

My sex life: All you need to know for the sake of discussion is that it's consistant with my belief that practicing fornication, adultery, homesexuality and gluttony, etc. is missing the mark, which we all do. (I did sleep with a gay man once ) I'll leave positions, etc. to your imagination because it's more exciting for you that way. I have zero curiousity about your intimate details. Besides, haven't you read my TB rants about the foolishness of gambling?

If living what I interpret as a Biblical lifestyle (there's that word again) rubs with your experience I ask that you respect my freedom to follow my beliefs. I've indirectly supported relief for many of your complaints of unfairness as gays and lesbians by voting to keep government out of as much as possible and private citizens in charge of their own lives. Since there's no such thing as a values vacumn my worldview does guide me as I vote as do all of yours except for Dragonrider.

Now for those who haven't heard let me go ahead for the upteenth time and draw attention to my "bigotry". When I use the term "homosexual lifestyle" I'm using what I consider to be a rather sterile clinical term as opposed to "queer" or "gay" or "lesbian". Any implied reference to promiscuity was unintended and I apologize to anyone who took it that way and will overlook the defensive retaliatory slams against my charactor.

Bigmac, you might accurately take the lifestyle part to mean I believe you make choices in life. Just because one is an alchoholic doesn't mean you're sentenced to life as a lush. I've come to believe we are born with the tendency to wander in many, many different ways and need an objective standard against which to judge our own behavior. I've been transparent about mine and I'm sorry it's offensive to you because I think highly of you based on the posts I've read.

Have a happy!