Post your thoughts and comments about this blog post.

Off course this has always been the intent to remove rights from gays, Some will openly admit that that is their intent others need to stoop to this type of subterfuge. obviously if the intent was to protect marriage the first thing you would look at would be the astronomical rates of divorce and the rampant cohabitation. These two items are destroying marriage by heterosexuals for heterosexuals.



I wrote in a previous blog about a letter to the editor in the NY Times which really struck me. Incarcerated criminals have more rights to marry than I do. They do not have the right to vote even after release on federal crimes. But they can get married even while still incarcerated, Rapist, spouse abusers, pedophiles, child abusers, mass murderers all can get married even while incarcerated but I who has never been convicted or charged with any crime whose only fault is loving someone of the same gender can never marry.



This type of subterfuge of naming a bill of to make it palatable has been a tool in use for a least two decades. One needs only listen to the sponsors to hear the true meaning of the bills.

This whole gay marriage thing is really starting to get boring,

Post your thoughts and comments about this blog post.

special rights of white male heterosexuals

Actually the bill also says no to conferring any rights to civil unions which could have a significant erosion of rights not just for homosexuals but also heterosexuals in terms of adoption, hospital visitation, inheritance company benefits such as health insurance. But your ignorance of facts is as profound as your statements are lacking LDB perhaps you should find time to educate yourself before speaking

But hey I do agree that all this fighting for special rights is tiresome so why not extend the special rights of white male heterosexuals to all people then you can be unbothered.

Subterfuge? There is no subterfuge about it; the amendment states that marriage is defined as being between 1 man and 1 woman and that this status will not be extended to any other combination. Sounds straight foreword to me.

Gay unions are not recognized now in any way so how are rights being taken away from this group? They're not, but it sounds better to say they are, gays hope to get victim status to further their cause.

This whole gay marriage thing is really starting to get boring, state laws says NO, so NO it is! Calling people that don't go along with the gay lifestyle names is childish and very transparent.

So are your posts that say the SAME thing every time you mention the topic. How about discussing it openly, not reiterating the same point time after time after time. . . . we get it already. Now if you really want to convince anybody that you are right, broaden your points, tell us more. Just don't beat us over the head with the same info each and every post.

That goes both ways.

Subterfuge? There is no subterfuge about it; the amendment states that marriage is defined as being between 1 man and 1 woman and that this status will not be extended to any other combination. Sounds straight foreword to me.

[/size]

Gay unions are not recognized now in any way so how are rights being taken away from this group? They're not, but it sounds better to say they are, gays hope to get victim status to further their cause.



[size="3"]This whole gay marriage thing is really starting to get boring, state laws says NO, so NO it is! Calling people that don't go along with the gay lifestyle names is childish and very transparent.

How many letters to the editors were written by these gay haters?

How many protests were organized by these haters?

...Becuase to want to have my relationship treated equally with yours is just childish and tiresome...

Sorry Rural you construed my post as response to you it was to LDB who did characterize my desire for equal rights as boring and childish.

As far as most conservative christians and conservative churches reaching out to homosexuals I would most strongly disagree. I have heard enough from conservative christians that can only be characterized as hate. Such as the recent politician who said gays desire for equal rights are worse than Islamic terrorists How can I characterize such a statement as anything but hate. Or the minister that likes to go around saying God Hates Fags. Or Pastor Hagee who blamed the Huricane Katrina on a gay pride event in New Orleans. Or Pastor Falwell and Robertson who said gays were the cause of 9/11 If this is reaching out in love its a very perverted love.

Thats my personal story not some media with a spin. If thats is love you can have it.

That goes both ways.

Typical liberal talking point...If you disagree with someone, you must hate them.

Typical liberal talking point...If you disagree with someone, you must hate them.

Sheesh...My wife told me tonight that she doesn't want a dog, but I want a dog...we disagree...that must mean we hate each other.

I have had several friends over the years who chose to live a homosexual lifestyle. Note the word "friends" in that sentence...obviously, I must hate them if they are my friends. They knew I disagreed with their lifestyle, but we never made it an issue. We've lost touch over time, but I know if we were to meet again, it would still be as friends.

Do I think homosexuals should be allowed to marry? Let me ask a different question, why would they need to? I have asked that question before and never recieved a compelling answer.

Do I think the government should get involved in the matter? I really don't think so. In my oppinion, marriage should be the perview of whatever religion the persons in question belong to. The Government has their hands in peoples' business as it is.

Do I think God recognizes the union of a homosexual couple whether they claim to be married or not? Well, that's His business, not mine.

I believe homosexuality is a sin; however, I also believe murder, rape, incest, lust, gluttony, gossip, slander, etc. are sins. No one sin is any worse in God's eyes than another. Jesus Himself said "it is not the healthy who need a physician, but the sick." Funny...seems to me that he was falsely accused too...Seems to me He also said that the greatest commandment is to "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind, and the second is like unto it, Love your neighbor as yourself."

So Gil (and any of you others out there who want to try to twist everything into an emotional argument by calling someone a hatemonger when they disagree with you), they are certainly some people out there who are deluded in their thinking, who do hate others based upon their choices in life. They are not indicative of the bulk of Conservative Christians. Most of us do our best to reach out to anyone struggling with sin of any kind, through the love of Christ, not through any idea that we are better than they.

Your tactics are very tiresome and more than a little childish.

That's a very interesting point. This happens with all sorts of issues, not just ones relating to homosexuality. To me, it's a red flag when someone wants to short-circuit any meaningful dialogue by labeling those who disagree as "haters". Maybe they are afraid there is some sense in what the other person has to say, so they want to cut it off before that person has a say. Maybe they don't want to accept that an issue is not neatly black and white--gray areas are hard to navigate. Or maybe they have a vested interest in keeping the matter from being discussed rationally and settled amicably. At any rate, it's a roadblock to honest dialogue.

Is the community helped or hindered by gay marriage? At best it's a push, but it may not be a push, it could be a negative, is it worth it to experiment?

Do you mean is it worth experimenting with a tradition in which 50% of all heterosexual marriages end in failure?
I would say it is a prime example of a tradition that needs to be experimented with, in more ways than one.

My marriage is doing great. Sorry if yours is not.......

Hey, I take my wife with me wherever I go...but somehow she keeps finding her way back.

Lemme guess, you have one of the t-shirts that says on the back "If you can read this, the b*tch fell off"?

My marriage is doing great. Sorry if yours is not.......

Would your marriage be worse off if homosexuals were allowed to marry? I would expect not. I think that is the point the original poster was trying to make.

My point is very simple. There are many marriages out there that are doing great. Too often I see the picture painted that marriages are in trouble, or need fixed. It is a blanket statement that is not accurate, in my opinion.........

Transgendered people have the highest percentage of hate crimes against them of any minority and most acts of violence are massive overkill where the victim is repeatedly stabbed and beaten.

How can you be BORN transgendered?

There are many marriages out there that are doing great. .

I have had several friends over the years who chose to live a homosexual lifestyle. Do I think homosexuals should be allowed to marry? Let me ask a different question, why would they need to? I have asked that question before and never recieved a compelling answer.

You know what Wonder you have crossed the line. you are now on my permanent ignore. I post a response and list a site which references one murdered transexual every month as hate crime and this is your response. I finally agree this topic is useless and I will leave the gay baiting posts to others. see ya

Don't half of all marriages end in divorce? With that in mind how many are not divorcing for the sake of the children or for another reason?
While many marriages are doing great I think most are not.

The point is, there are many out there that are doing very well. Whether it is a majority or not, the picture seems to be portrayed that all marriages are bad. This is not the case....

You know that I have agreed with all of your posts thusfar but I believe, IMOO, that you may be a bit hypersensative to that question. I can't state whether she meant any malice or not but IMO I don't think that she did. I think it was an honest question trying to understand a subject that not many have any knowledge of. I am gay and hang around T people and I don't even get the entire thing. I am being completely honest here. I am constantly asking them questions. They are also very patient with me because they know that I don't mean them harm-I am trying to educate myself. Allow her to be educated. I think I would reconsider the question and answer with the utmost honesty as you always do. For example-some men have a sex change and become a woman to be with a woman. I don't understand this and am still striving to do so. You know what I mean?

Perhaps you are right, if so I apologize. I tend to get cranky sometimes. But you have to admit that a recurring theme from the right is you can not be born gay or transgendered you chose to be gay or transgendered. When I was talking about the death of many transgedered and violence against transgendered and am asked that question again it did seem to get my ire.



No man can have a sex change to be with a woman!!!!! He could never get surgical approval if that was his reason. There used to be a rumor about me that I became a woman becuase my wife was a lesbian and I thought I could keep her that way. I laughed my !profanity! off when I heard that one. Some Male to Female MTF transexuals remain attracted to women post transition I count myself among that group. Some Female to Male Transexuals remain attracted to men after surgery. As a lesbian you must know that gender and sexual orientation are not synonymous.



How can one be born transgendered. I don't know nor does anyone else. I presume the same way one can be born intersexual, born with ambigous or both genitals. The brain is a very complex organ but just another organ with equal variatioan in structure as any other organ. Some people are made transsexual I am sure but this is at a very early age, gender identity is set at a very young age under age 4 from what I have read. Wether I was born transgendered or abused into by a father that sexually, physically and verbally abused me from my earliest memories is mute. Becuase now it is immutable , it is who I am and I better love who I am as this is the only life I can have.



Is that better BigMac



Last night I read in the NYTimes about a Indian couple. she was pregnant and they were in their early 20's A crowd broke into their house and kicked and beat her until he awoke then the drug them both out and strangled them both on the edge of town. Their crime they violated a religous law that says a man and a woman from the same town can not marry. This is what happens when you have religous laws governing marriage Of course in middle east you have men being killed for just being in the company of a known gay man.

There were at least nine Senate Republicans and more than that number of Senate Democrats who wanted a good reason to vote against the bill or weaken it dramatically.

Got that? It was a bill not just to ”protect marriage” - it was specifically designed to strip rights from gays.

Can you feel the love of another conservative christian reaching out to me. Let me bask in its glow awhile. Why it feels as warm as a fall freezing rain.

That's not rain! Is dark sarcasm still allowed?

This really is the story. This bunch in Harrisburg either are anti-traditional values or have them and are acting like they've had orchidectomies to try to appear to be sophisticated and modern, which makes them scoundrels. May we have the names please, of the ones who wanted to weaken the bill? It sounds like Harrisburg again needs more input from the people, i.e. the pay raise.

Actually, I think that the real story is how the false concept of "traditional values" has been placed into so many people's cognitive vocabulary. "Traditional values" is a propaganda motif. It is used by those who wish to simplify the complex cultural world into a nifty little "right and wrong" worldview. This is done to attract the endorsement of non-critical thinkers. Actually, I would go one step further and suggest that it is designed to turn people into non-critical thinkers.

Anyone who has even briefly studied values or culture in American history realizes quickly that there is very little "traditional" about them. Most people who are discussing "traditonal values" really just mean the values of their parents. And I am not about to carry on another generation of making all the same mistakes they did.

Culture and values always, always, always, always evolve. There's no getting around that. Politicians who make any claim about enacting legislation regarding "tradtional values" are fools. They are either non-critical thinkers with a limited understanding of the world and American history, or worse, Gil is correct and they are using "traditonal values" legislation as a tool to make all the sheeple go, "Baahhhhh."

Think scientifically. I am not talking about hormonal wash...whatever that is...I am talking about DNA [programmed at the time of conception].

In my opinion there is no good reason for a person to become something they are not. That is carrying self-mutilation to the extreme. I am talking about DNA testing so that people can be or become what they ARE programmed to be. That may be true of you, in my way of thinking, Dragonrider, so please do not see offense.

I know of a situation where a person went through the whole transgender process. HE believed his family was adjusted but they were not. I happened to be in a position, or in several positions at the time, where I saw proof that the family was not adjusted. The "adjustment" was just another fantasy the subject needed to believe in his [to her] delusional self. Why not start the process in the beginning, so that innocent people do not have to suffer for the wants and desires of one person who could have been helped. The information was not available even 20 years ago but now it is out there so there is no excuse for the next generation. We need to deal with real issues and not legislate a continuance on the wrong path.

I realize there is confusion and turmoil in the homosexual community. We need to provide appropriate medical and psychological care so that real issues are dealt with....bullying of individuals from a young age on up, dysfunctional families, acohol/substance abuse and physical and sexual abuse of children. Then we can return to the time when there were fewer individuals who believed the only answer was the homosexual lifestyle. Life choices should not be so easy for anyone by the way. I am not just picking on those who choose the homosexual lifestyle.

Okay. You discounted what I said immediately, Dragonrider. I am done. It could be that someone knows something.

If no one listens, I move on.....

UNTIL THE NEXT TIME.

I agree with what you are saying (in my case, anyways). Here's the situation though, Wonder. I was on the adoption block at birth. I was born at a private hospital with little funding especially for something of this nature. My biological mother was 14 when she had me. I was adopted into A VERY STRICT Catholic family (they still had mass in Latin) and said the rosary together as a family,etc. Where did that leave me at that point????



If I had DNA testing as an infant and they found predominant male instead of female and rectified the problem I would have been much happier so far and my new parents would have been much more loving and accepting of me. It sure is easier to live with yourself and others when you know exactly who you are. I'll give you that much. I'm here today by no choice of my own and I was born that way and you know it. I have two children-one is 27 years old and one is seven years old. I'm not about to put them through all of that. I, on the other hand, think of others besides myself and how I feel. You may not agree with homosexuality but all I'm asking is that you tolerate it. I don't push myself off on anyone outside of cyberspace-honestly. I know that you think you feel an obligation to your God to spread his word but I don't think that's what he meant. He did say that he is the one to judge others and not man. Let's say that I kill myself because I constantly got harrassed by you and I had nowhere to turn. What would that make you then? We should teach all of this world to love one another as I have loved you and let the final "scientific explanations" be left to God. This world would be a much nicer place if everyone just got along and focused on themselves and no one else. Would you at least agree with that?


Please understand that I mean nothing to harm you-I'm merely just giving hypothetical situations to help understand where it is that I am coming from. You know that I am okay with you and have no hard feelings. You also know that this is a VERY sensitive subject for me. Thanks for the posts.........

Sorry but I think your posted comments, ( as I highlighted) speak to a psychological causation for your gender confusion and not genetic or hormonal. My guess is that you play the female, ( submissive ) role in your relationships as a way to receive the love, attention and acceptance you feel you missed as a child.

[/size]

[size="3"]Predominantly male? Genetically there is no predominantly, you either are a male or you are not.
Did you catch the OW show a few weeks back? A woman changing her identity to a man with hormone therapy, now pregnant. That person made me sick, and the real shame is that there will be a child involved in that pycho sexual behavior.

Oh, and by the by, if you don't want someone to think you're quoting them, don't use their wording.

I am sorry you have had bad experiences with churches in your past. The experiences you listed are sad examples of how not to show love for another person.

However, assuming that all Christians are like that just because some Christians were unkind to you is stereotyping. Say a person visits the ocean for the first time, having never actually seen the ocean, but having been told that there are white sandy beaches on the ocean, and the place they visit happens to be lined with rocks instead of sand. They could assume that what they have been told is a lie, or they could keep looking for another beach.

Would you like to share your viewpoint on the issue and discuss it or would you just like to jump in on our discussion and make disparaging marks against me?

All the homophobes use the exact same wording, so it's impossible to not use the wording they used. It's a script. LOL you really cracked me up.





Then perhaps you should extend an invitation to dragonrider to visit your church with you to show that your church isn't a group of hatred.

That would prove the point easily. Then dragonrider would know if you are telling the truth or just covering it up. Maybe you would pick up a new member if it was loving and inviting like you say it is.

I had a homosexual cousin who died of AIDS in 1990. He was also a strict practicing Catholic. When he became too ill to attend Mass, one of the priests and several members of his Congregation came to his house and performed Mass there. That is an example of the kind of love that exists in some churches.

Lemme guess, you have one of the t-shirts that says on the back "If you can read this, the b*tch fell off"?

LDB, I have seen many reasoned discussions here from the left to which you reply with some non sequetir or hate. So I think the same can be said of the right.



Rural I have found a church but you can be sure it is not a conservative church nor do I include and conservative christians among my friends, You see the problem arises thus, A conservative christian says my "lifestyle" is a "choice". That this choice can and should be legislated against just like polygamy, beastiality or pedophilia.

Now first and foremost I see Homosexuality and transgenderism as something I was born with . I never chose nor did any of my gay friends chose to be gay or transgendered. They just are gay , just as you are straight. you never chose to be straight. Now when I am told that conservative christians want to legislate against homosexuality and I know I have no choice but to be what I am I hear them saying they want to legislate me out of existance to in effect end my life. Secondly when I am repeatedly compared to polygamists and pedophiles , I feel greatly insulted. So I respond with rightous indignation becuase I feel threatened and insulted. This is not hate this is rightous indignation for my life being denigrated and my rights being legislated away.

When I came out I was shot at, someone tried to run me over with a car, My tires were slashed, nails place under my tires, hate messages put on my car and workplace. I have a real reason to feel physically threatened by the response from the christian conservative Transgendered people have the highest percentage of hate crimes against them of any minority and most acts of violence are massive overkill where the victim is repeatedly stabbed and beaten.

My point is very simple. There are many marriages out there that are doing great. Too often I see the picture painted that marriages are in trouble, or need fixed. It is a blanket statement that is not accurate, in my opinion.........

How can you be BORN transgendered?

They also tell me that no other man has ever made love to them as completely as I have................since you felt the need to know...........

Or it could be that some people are comfortable with the world they grew up in. Why try to box everyone in to such a narrow view of the world?

Sorry but I think your posted comments, ( as I highlighted) speak to a psychological causation for your gender confusion and not genetic or hormonal. My guess is that you play the female, ( submissive ) role in your relationships as a way to receive the love, attention and acceptance you feel you missed as a child.