Say goodbye

April 29th, 2008 10:48 am · 123 comments

Managed to miss Jeremiah Wright’s press conference yesterday, but have been reading about it ever since. Pretty bad - before, you could say, well, things were said in the heat of a sermon, but look at the totality of Wright’s effect on his parishioners, his neighborhood, consider the fact that if you were black, etc. etc.

But yesterday, it really does seem as it was intended as a big, extended middle finger to mainstream America - maybe even Obama himself. But Wright insisted Obama doesn’t really disagree with his incindiary views, just has to say so for the benefit of the cameras, and those horrified white people sitting at home in places like Des Moines, or Lancaster.

And I agree then with Sullivan:

Obama needs not just to distance himself from Wright’s views; he needs to disown him at this point. Wright himself, it seems to me, has become part of what Obama is fighting against: the boomer, Vietnam era’s obsession with its red-blue, white-black, pro and anti-America fixations. That is not what this election needs to be about; and Wright’s massive, racially divisive and, yes, bitter provocation requires a proportionate response.

We need a speech or statement from Obama in which he utterly repudiates this poison, however personally difficult that may be, however damaging the impact will be.

But I think the damage is done, even if Obama does do this. I mean, Hillary or McCain couldn’t have dialed this up any better. And at this stage, it is legitimate, absolutely.

At this point I think I’m in the process of taking a step back from Obama. The bloom being off the rose; but then, for me anyway, this was never about Obama the candidate or Obama the individual, rather than what Obama represented, or I thought he might represent - change. A Democratic Party that had evolved beyond merely wishing for the past, thinking the old New Deal coalition could be resurrected and made to walk. Something other than nostalgia - because I do think that’s been Hillary’s primary appeal. The ’90s weren’t half bad, compared to now. Let’s go back.

The Pennsylvania results had a lot to do with the evolution in my own thinking, actually. I mean, it’s pretty clear that in old industrial states like this one, at least, a lot of people aren’t ready for change; a lot of people aren’t ready to move forward. What I’ve seen as the new coalition on the left side of the fence, which is really more toward the center, consists of the old working-class contituency, in that free trade has not really delivered on its promises, and has harmed both individuals and, in some respects, the country; but it also consists of the people in the suburbs who until so recently have trended Republican. I think that’s changing and changing fast, and while the economy is definitely a factor in that, I think our 100-year war in the Mideast is still the biggest factor. Frankly, I think you’ve got moms and dads with small kids who at one time might have voted Republican because they think Republicans are going to keep them safe, but now understand that even if their kids are just toddlers they, too, may wind up being affected by this Republican crusade in the Mideast, avowed to last for generations. They don’t want that for their kids; they will vote accordingly.

Anyway, Obama represents this, or I thought he might. And maybe he still does. But maybe the likes of Wright simply weigh him down too much. If that’s the case, I don’t think the loose movement of those who think change necessary dissipates; and I’m not sure whom they vote for, though it would probably be Hillary. It’s a victory for the old, but maybe the new just isn’t ready for prime time. And if it’s not, no sense in pretending it is.

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  123 comments  Tags: Obama

There are currently 123 comments on this blog post
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Pericles
4/29/08
11:32 AM
QUOTE(Lancaster Online @ Apr 29 2008, 10:50 AM) [snapback]383427[/snapback]


Post your thoughts and comments about this blog post.


I watched Wright's appearance at the NAACP meeting and the National Press Club. I tried to be sympathetic to his views, but some of his points some just made me angry, and by extension less inclinded to believe the rhetoric of Obama. I'm not sure why so many liberals are piling on though, Wright didn't really say anything that we haven't already heard from the Left.

I don't think Obama gets another shot at making the "race" speech. Anything at this point is just too transparent and overtly political.

Your problem Gil, is that the Democratic nomination process is over. Obama will be the nominee, unless the Democrat party is willing to suffer the consequences, which they are not.
Lysol54
4/29/08
11:37 AM
QUOTE(Pericles @ Apr 29 2008, 11:32 AM) [snapback]383462[/snapback]


I watched Wright's appearance at the NAACP meeting and the National Press Club. I tried to be sympathetic to his views, but some of his points some just made me angry, and by extension less inclinded to believe the rhetoric of Obama. I'm not sure why so many liberals are piling on though, Wright didn't really say anything that we haven't already heard from the Left.

I don't think Obama gets another shot at making the "race" speech. Anything at this point is just too transparent and overtly political.

Your problem Gil, is that the Democratic nomination process is over. Obama will be the nominee, unless the Democrat party is willing to suffer the consequences, which they are not.




Ah yes Pericles the master of the Democratic party. Funny for never holding public office you seem to spout off about things you have little knowledge of?? blink.gif





Pericles
4/29/08
11:51 AM
QUOTE(Lysol54 @ Apr 29 2008, 11:37 AM) [snapback]383468[/snapback]

Ah yes Pericles the master of the Democratic party. Funny for never holding public office you seem to spout off about things you have little knowledge of?? blink.gif


If you have point, make it. Otherwise, stop engaging in useless gossip and sniping?
gsmart
4/29/08
11:54 AM
QUOTE(Pericles @ Apr 29 2008, 11:32 AM) [snapback]383462[/snapback]


Your problem Gil, is that the Democratic nomination process is over. Obama will be the nominee, unless the Democrat party is willing to suffer the consequences, which they are not.




No, my problem is that I think our politics in this country desperately has to change - and won't, under either McCain or Hillary.

Lysol54
4/29/08
12:00 PM
QUOTE(Pericles @ Apr 29 2008, 11:51 AM) [snapback]383487[/snapback]


If you have point, make it. Otherwise, stop engaging in useless gossip and sniping?




LOL thats gossip now? Well thats what you were doing on the thread about Porn. I was just making a point that you can have an opinion on something that your don't have intimate knowledge about. So stop doing that to other people every time they have an opinion on the military. Didn't know someone died and made you the forum moderator?? Kind of pompus don't ya think??
usedmeat
4/29/08
12:07 PM
QUOTE
Your problem Gil, is that the Democratic nomination process is over. Obama will be the nominee, unless the Democrat party is willing to suffer the consequences, which they are not.


I'll agree with the not willing to suffer the consequences part. But Howard Dean has been changing his tune since the Reverend Wright controversy has surfaced. Judging by past performance what ever decision the DNC reaches will be the wrong one and we will have a McCain presidency.
Pericles
4/29/08
12:14 PM
QUOTE(gsmart @ Apr 29 2008, 11:54 AM) [snapback]383489[/snapback]


No, my problem is that I think our politics in this country desperately has to change - and won't, under either McCain or Hillary.


You have an idealized view of Obama. He speaks differently, appeals to younger voters, but he's still a politician.
Bigby_M
4/29/08
12:15 PM
Man this guy has a huge ego. Geez he is willing to throw Obama under the cement truck to further his own ambitions.

The problem is that if Obama refutes Wright he will look like he is pandering, like John McCain panders.If he does not they will tar Obama with the same brush.



Lysol54
4/29/08
12:23 PM
QUOTE(Pericles @ Apr 29 2008, 12:14 PM) [snapback]383506[/snapback]

You have an idealized view of Obama. He speaks differently, appeals to younger voters, but he's still a politician.




But when that was Reagan you were talking about then thats suddenly an ok thing?? Change was good back then??
4coffee
4/29/08
12:50 PM
Wright caught onto Obama's heel and is riding out his 10 minutes of fame while hurting Obama's campaign. Must be trying to get more members/more money in his church.



Here are just a few examples of why I don't like Wright:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremiah_Wright

QUOTE


In late 2007, Wright was appointed to Barack Obama's African American Religious Leadership Committee, a group of over 170 national black religious leaders who supported Obama's bid for the Democratic nomination;[27] however, it was announced in March 2008 that Wright was no longer serving as a member of this group.[28] ABC News found several racially and politically charged sermons by Wright, including his suggestion that past U.S. policies were partially responsible for the September 11 attacks, his statement, "God bless America... No!... God Damn America...for killing innocent people...for treating her citizens as less than human," and his assertion that "[t]he government lied about inventing the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color."[31][32]



Pericles
4/29/08
1:15 PM
QUOTE(gsmart @ Apr 29 2008, 11:54 AM) [snapback]383489[/snapback]


No, my problem is that I think our politics in this country desperately has to change - and won't, under either McCain or Hillary.



Hillary is out of the equation. Your choice will be between Obama or McCain.

Am I missing something Gil?
Pericles
4/29/08
2:26 PM
QUOTE(Bigby_M @ Apr 29 2008, 12:15 PM) [snapback]383508[/snapback]
Man this guy has a huge ego. Geez he is willing to throw Obama under the cement truck to further his own ambitions.

The problem is that if Obama refutes Wright he will look like he is pandering, like John McCain panders.If he does not they will tar Obama with the same brush.


http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/040..._on_Wright.html
grieker
4/29/08
2:40 PM
Wright is funded through Hillary with money received from republican donors smile.gif



johnq
4/29/08
2:41 PM
QUOTE(usedmeat @ Apr 29 2008, 12:07 PM) [snapback]383502[/snapback]


I'll agree with the not willing to suffer the consequences part. But Howard Dean has been changing his tune since the Reverend Wright controversy has surfaced. Judging by past performance what ever decision the DNC reaches will be the wrong one and we will have a McCain presidency.
Well, another rare time when you and I agree. Obama is looking less and less "electable" and nominating Hilary would alienate too many.

That would be a delicious irony, though, for the Dems to nominate Hilary when Obama has won the popular vote.

mam0412
4/29/08
3:25 PM
Once again, the news media is out of control sensationalizing a relationship between two people that has nothing to do with the issues at hand. Rev. Wright is not Obama and Obama is not Rev. Wright. Period. Let's not continue to confuse the two.
BeingReal
4/29/08
9:54 PM
QUOTE(mam0412 @ Apr 29 2008, 03:25 PM) [snapback]383642[/snapback]
Once again, the news media is out of control sensationalizing a relationship between two people that has nothing to do with the issues at hand. Rev. Wright is not Obama and Obama is not Rev. Wright. Period. Let's not continue to confuse the two.


While I understand clearly that Obama is not Reverend Wright, he attended this church with Reverend Wright as pastor for approximately 20 years. Reverend Wright presided at his marriage -- and, if I recall the article correctly, his children's baptisms and/or confirmations. I find it VERY difficult to believe that these views didn't come up in sermons from time to time, let alone conversations or other activities in which the two were engaged. To me, it's not like Obama can claim he didn't know what Reverend Wright's views were, so there is some valid concern about where Obama really does stand on these issues.



Let me put it this way: I'd be thrilled if there was a real positive change agent in either party (I'm a Democrat), but I'm not quite buying that Obama is that person. Seems to me, a person who really seeks to unite people wouldn't hang with people who spout divisive views. But maybe Obama's membership there was really more about political clout than it was about anything else...Who really knows? I'm not certain we really have enough time to get down to the truth before the nomination is settled (I personally don't think it's settled yet).



QUOTE(johnq @ Apr 29 2008, 02:41 PM) [snapback]383622[/snapback]
Well, another rare time when you and I agree. Obama is looking less and less "electable" and nominating Hilary would alienate too many.


What is especially ironic to me about this point is that my husband, a Republican, would vote for Hillary over McCain or Obama. Neither of us would vote for Obama at this point....there are too many unanswered questions still hanging out there. While I agree with Gil that our politics desperately needs change, I'd like the changes to be positive changes and I'm not certain that's what nominating Obama will bring right now. I would be less concerned if this pastor thing hadn't popped up, but right now it worries me like the possibility of voting for someone who hangs out with David Duke would. Do we really know what we're getting with Obama?

Nativeson
4/29/08
10:08 PM
I guess my first reaction to Rev. Wright as a speaker at the National Press Club was why would he be invited to speak there? He's not a national leader of anything by any stretch of the imagination. He didn't seem like a big enough wheel. Was it an attempt to once again inject race into the campaign? Like a nurse who keeps trying insert an IV needle and can't seem to hit that elusive vein.

With the stakes as high as they are in any national election I take it for granted that everything that happens is planned with specific intent. The question is by whom and for what purpose? blink.gif

Purkle
4/29/08
10:25 PM
QUOTE(Lysol54 @ Apr 29 2008, 12:23 PM) [snapback]383518[/snapback]




But when that was Reagan you were talking about then thats suddenly an ok thing?? Change was good back then??




When you're standing on the edge of a cliff, moving forward is not always the best choice.

Change isn't always good, sometimes change is a very bad thing. look at the change we made in 2000. look at the change in Iraq. look at the change in the national deficit. These are changes, but they are not good changes. Obama says 'Change, Change, Change, yes we can' but doesn't tell us what that change is going to be. He doesn't lay out specifics, just idealogical situations and high minded rhetoric. If I'm going to make a change, I want to know what that change is and exactly what part of things it is that we are changing.

I'm not comfortable with Obama because he has never given clear answers to anything, it's always beating around the bush, and frankly, I've had enough bush in the last 7 years.



QUOTE(Pericles @ Apr 29 2008, 01:15 PM) [snapback]383542[/snapback]


Hillary is out of the equation. Your choice will be between Obama or McCain.

Am I missing something Gil?




Hillary is not out of the equation. There are still several states that have yet to vote, each having delegates and popular votes. Then there are the superdelegates who were put in place in the event that the frontrunner should implode to pull the nomination back to a more practical candidate. It looks like they may need to fulfill their purpose this year. Maybe they won't even be needed. If Obama doesn't get at least 15% of the vote, he doesn't get any delegates, it could happen.

After this cycle, the Democrats need to make their primaries winner take all for delegates and do away with superdelegates to prevent something this absurd from happening again. If the democratic primary had been winner take all, we'd be seeing McCain and Clinton fighting it out now with Obama out of the picture. It's ludicrous that the person who has won the states with the most delegates and the popular vote is still behind the person who was able to get people out to caucus states because it was easier for them to skip class than it was for the working adults to miss a day of work.



QUOTE(grieker @ Apr 29 2008, 02:40 PM) [snapback]383620[/snapback]
Wright is funded through Hillary with money received from republican donors smile.gif







you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I would like to see proof of that statement. Of course we won't see proof, because it's absolutely false.



QUOTE(johnq @ Apr 29 2008, 02:41 PM) [snapback]383622[/snapback]
Well, another rare time when you and I agree. Obama is looking less and less "electable" and nominating Hilary would alienate too many.

That would be a delicious irony, though, for the Dems to nominate Hilary when Obama has won the popular vote.





He doesn't have the popular vote, he has the delegate count.



QUOTE(mam0412 @ Apr 29 2008, 03:25 PM) [snapback]383642[/snapback]
Once again, the news media is out of control sensationalizing a relationship between two people that has nothing to do with the issues at hand. Rev. Wright is not Obama and Obama is not Rev. Wright. Period. Let's not continue to confuse the two.




These are Obama's own words in Philadelphia;

"I can no more disown him than I can disown the black community. '

Today, he disowns Wright. Tomorrow, will he disown the black community?

Sorry, Obama isn't for change, he's just more of the same, only worse. He is immature, elitist, politically niave, unvetted, untried and not ready to lead his own life, let alone an entire country.

I fell for it all back at the 2004 convention, my family and I talked about how that man would be president some day. The thing is, Jan 20, 2009 is not that day.






QUOTE(BeingReal @ Apr 29 2008, 09:54 PM) [snapback]383761[/snapback]


While I understand clearly that Obama is not Reverend Wright, he attended this church with Reverend Wright as pastor for approximately 20 years. Reverend Wright presided at his marriage -- and, if I recall the article correctly, his children's baptisms and/or confirmations. I find it VERY difficult to believe that these views didn't come up in sermons from time to time, let alone conversations or other activities in which the two were engaged. To me, it's not like Obama can claim he didn't know what Reverend Wright's views were, so there is some valid concern about where Obama really does stand on these issues.







Let me put it this way: I'd be thrilled if there was a real positive change agent in either party (I'm a Democrat), but I'm not quite buying that Obama is that person. Seems to me, a person who really seeks to unite people wouldn't hang with people who spout divisive views. But maybe Obama's membership there was really more about political clout than it was about anything else...Who really knows? I'm not certain we really have enough time to get down to the truth before the nomination is settled (I personally don't think it's settled yet).

Obama claims to have the better judgement and that is why he says he should be president. I believe that being a member of that church and having a close relationship with his pastor for the past 20 years shows a severe lack of judgement and invalidates his premise.

Can we afford to have a president with this kind of judgement? Especially after 8 years of bush's poor judgement?


QUOTE(BeingReal @ Apr 29 2008, 09:54 PM) [snapback]383761[/snapback]


What is especially ironic to me about this point is that my husband, a Republican, would vote for Hillary over McCain or Obama. Neither of us would vote for Obama at this point....there are too many unanswered questions still hanging out there. While I agree with Gil that our politics desperately needs change, I'd like the changes to be positive changes and I'm not certain that's what nominating Obama will bring right now. I would be less concerned if this pastor thing hadn't popped up, but right now it worries me like the possibility of voting for someone who hangs out with David Duke would. Do we really know what we're getting with Obama?



Although my wife has changed her party to Democrat (one of the conditions of the marriage lol), we feel the same way. If Hillary isn't the nominee, we'll vote McCain. If McCain makes a lousy choice for VP (like lieberman or rice...or anyone in bush's cabinet), we'll vote third party, but we will not vote for Obama under any circumstance.

dragonrider
4/29/08
10:31 PM
Actually Barack does have the populer vote, states won and delegate count.
Purkle
4/29/08
10:33 PM
QUOTE(Nativeson @ Apr 29 2008, 10:08 PM) [snapback]383770[/snapback]
I guess my first reaction to Rev. Wright as a speaker at the National Press Club was why would he be invited to speak there? He's not a national leader of anything by any stretch of the imagination. He didn't seem like a big enough wheel. Was it an attempt to once again inject race into the campaign? Like a nurse who keeps trying insert an IV needle and can't seem to hit that elusive vein.

With the stakes as high as they are in any national election I take it for granted that everything that happens is planned with specific intent. The question is by whom and for what purpose? blink.gif





Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson are getting old and passe'. They need another radical, really, really 'out there' black minister to go to for sound bites (countered by some psycho racist guy on the radical right). Gotta keep the drama alive to keep the ratings up. If race is taken out of the equation, they would have to focus on something else. The next biggest divide would be Catholic vs. Protestant and the media is very much afraid of that one. Race is much safer for them because they can visually target people(by skin color) instead of having to look into backgrounds to determine religous affiliation.

BeingReal
4/29/08
10:33 PM
QUOTE(Purkle @ Apr 29 2008, 10:25 PM) [snapback]383771[/snapback]

you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I would like to see proof of that statement. Of course we won't see proof, because it's absolutely false.


I think Grieker was making a funny. wink.gif



QUOTE(Purkle @ Apr 29 2008, 10:25 PM) [snapback]383771[/snapback]

Obama claims to have the better judgement and that is why he says he should be president. I believe that being a member of that church and having a close relationship with his pastor for the past 20 years shows a severe lack of judgement and invalidates his premise.


This is my train of thought -- or that Obama ignored the Pastor's messages for political gain.

Purkle
4/29/08
10:40 PM
QUOTE(dragonrider @ Apr 29 2008, 10:31 PM) [snapback]383776[/snapback]
Actually Barack does have the populer vote, states won and delegate count.




no, he doesn't. Even if Michigan and Florida don't get delegates, they still casted votes and each one was counted. Hillary has the popular vote and is growing. There are several different scenarios laid out either on huffingtonpost or realclearpolitics that shows the breakdown with and without different groups.

Since Obama's precious caucus states didn't report voter numbers, he lost out in popular vote numbers there (of course they were miniscule compared to primaries and I think a caucus is not a valid way to choose anything, especially not a presidential candidate and the ridiculous practice will be done away with in the next election cycle)





QUOTE(BeingReal @ Apr 29 2008, 10:33 PM) [snapback]383779[/snapback]


I think Grieker was making a funny. wink.gif





This is my train of thought -- or that Obama ignored the Pastor's messages for political gain.





Yeah, he's showing himself more and more to be just another politician. Not even a good one at that.

harv1
4/30/08
12:11 AM
I would venture to guess that there are people on this forum who belong to churches that preached the validity of slavery in the US as based on their minister's interpretation of the bible in times of slavery. Also people here who belong to religions that banned African Americans from attending their churches. All churches and all ministers in the US, at one time or another (with few exceptions) preached things that were abhorent to another group of people. And still go to churches who condemn gay people.

No one raised an eyebrow when Rick Santorum, a Catholic, sat proudly in the audience when Rev. Hagee spoke. Same goes for Lieberman being there. Does Santorum believe that the Catholic Church is a whore as Hagee has stated? Rev. Hagee has preached a lot of hate over the years.... yet John McCain sought out his support for his presidential run and refused on national television to say anything against Hagee and refused to disassociate himself with Hagee despite Hagee's virulence and hatred spewing. I don't understand why Rev. Wright's words are considered more horrible than Hagee's and I don't understand why there is no hue and cry against McCain and drum beating regarding Hagee after McCain repeatedly say that he would not disavow his chasing after Hagee for his approval and support.
Lancaster
4/30/08
1:06 AM
QUOTE(harv1 @ Apr 30 2008, 12:11 AM) [snapback]383809[/snapback]
I would venture to guess that there are people on this forum who belong to churches that preached the validity of slavery in the US as based on their minister's interpretation of the bible in times of slavery. Also people here who belong to religions that banned African Americans from attending their churches. All churches and all ministers in the US, at one time or another (with few exceptions) preached things that were abhorent to another group of people. And still go to churches who condemn gay people.

No one raised an eyebrow when Rick Santorum, a Catholic, sat proudly in the audience when Rev. Hagee spoke. Same goes for Lieberman being there. Does Santorum believe that the Catholic Church is a whore as Hagee has stated? Rev. Hagee has preached a lot of hate over the years.... yet John McCain sought out his support for his presidential run and refused on national television to say anything against Hagee and refused to disassociate himself with Hagee despite Hagee's virulence and hatred spewing. I don't understand why Rev. Wright's words are considered more horrible than Hagee's and I don't understand why there is no hue and cry against McCain and drum beating regarding Hagee after McCain repeatedly say that he would not disavow his chasing after Hagee for his approval and support.




I think the focus is greater because of the deep 20 year relationship between Obama and Wright. This is about a way of thinking, possible deep held beliefs or convictions. Not some fly-by-night group vote grab like a McCain/Hagee pairing.



People are really interested in how Barack handles this.

iconoclast
4/30/08
7:07 AM
QUOTE(Nativeson @ Apr 29 2008, 10:08 PM) [snapback]383770[/snapback]
I guess my first reaction to Rev. Wright as a speaker at the National Press Club was why would he be invited to speak there? He's not a national leader of anything by any stretch of the imagination. He didn't seem like a big enough wheel. Was it an attempt to once again inject race into the campaign? Like a nurse who keeps trying insert an IV needle and can't seem to hit that elusive vein.

With the stakes as high as they are in any national election I take it for granted that everything that happens is planned with specific intent. The question is by whom and for what purpose? blink.gif





What do you know about the NPC? You shouldn't make statements unless you know whereof you speak. You seem to believe that one must be a "national leader," or a "big enough wheel" to speak at an NPC luncheon. Here's a quiz for you; identify these recent speakers at NPC luncheons.



Glenn Tilton - Leonard Slatkin - Sharon Percy Rockefeller - Annie Leibovitz - Janet Murquia - Don Ritchie - Terrence Jones. (Are they national leaders, or big enough wheels?)



And you're not allowed to google them (though I know you will).



And before you ask; as a member of certain professional journalism associations I generally always receive NPC press releases and as well have attended more than one luncheon.



So do your homework in the future rather than make presumtions about an organization which you obviously know nothing about.

ph34r.gif





Nativeson
4/30/08
7:24 AM
QUOTE(iconoclast @ Apr 30 2008, 07:07 AM) [snapback]383842[/snapback]




What do you know about the NPC? You shouldn't make statements unless you know whereof you speak. You seem to believe that one must be a "national leader," or a "big enough wheel" to speak at an NPC luncheon. Here's a quiz for you; identify these recent speakers at NPC luncheons.



Glenn Tilton - Leonard Slatkin - Sharon Percy Rockefeller - Annie Leibovitz - Janet Murquia - Don Ritchie - Terrence Jones. (Are they national leaders, or big enough wheels?)



And you're not allowed to google them (though I know you will).



And before you ask; as a member of certain professional journalism associations I generally always receive NPC press releases and as well have attended more than one luncheon.



So do your homework in the future rather than make presumtions about an organization which you obviously know nothing about.

ph34r.gif







No need for the flame resistant helmet, and no I don't Google then say I didn't. I'm not that desperate to score points for Obama. My "homework" was to ask the question on here so someone more knowledgable that I might add theirs, which you did. Thank you.

grieker
4/30/08
7:43 AM
QUOTE(Nativeson @ Apr 29 2008, 10:08 PM) [snapback]383770[/snapback]
I guess my first reaction to Rev. Wright as a speaker at the National Press Club was why would he be invited to speak there?



I believe if you check you'll he was invited by a Hillary backer. Doubtful if it was a political ploy, but a Hillary backer non-the-less.

4coffee
4/30/08
8:09 AM
Looks like Obama is cutting ties with Wright:



http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24371827/


Obama strongly denounces former pastor - Candidate calls Wright's recent comments 'wrong and destructive'
Scout
4/30/08
8:11 AM
QUOTE(4coffee @ Apr 30 2008, 08:09 AM) [snapback]383865[/snapback]
Looks like Obama is cutting ties with Wright:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24371827/
Obama strongly denounces former pastor - Candidate calls Wright's recent comments 'wrong and destructive'




Yah, destructive to his campaign

mam0412
4/30/08
8:35 AM
QUOTE(BeingReal @ Apr 29 2008, 09:54 PM) [snapback]383761[/snapback]


While I understand clearly that Obama is not Reverend Wright, he attended this church with Reverend Wright as pastor for approximately 20 years. Reverend Wright presided at his marriage -- and, if I recall the article correctly, his children's baptisms and/or confirmations. I find it VERY difficult to believe that these views didn't come up in sermons from time to time, let alone conversations or other activities in which the two were engaged. To me, it's not like Obama can claim he didn't know what Reverend Wright's views were, so there is some valid concern about where Obama really does stand on these issues.



Let me put it this way: I'd be thrilled if there was a real positive change agent in either party (I'm a Democrat), but I'm not quite buying that Obama is that person. Seems to me, a person who really seeks to unite people wouldn't hang with people who spout divisive views. But maybe Obama's membership there was really more about political clout than it was about anything else...Who really knows? I'm not certain we really have enough time to get down to the truth before the nomination is settled (I personally don't think it's settled yet).





What is especially ironic to me about this point is that my husband, a Republican, would vote for Hillary over McCain or Obama. Neither of us would vote for Obama at this point....there are too many unanswered questions still hanging out there. While I agree with Gil that our politics desperately needs change, I'd like the changes to be positive changes and I'm not certain that's what nominating Obama will bring right now. I would be less concerned if this pastor thing hadn't popped up, but right now it worries me like the possibility of voting for someone who hangs out with David Duke would. Do we really know what we're getting with Obama?



I think what people are failing to realize is it is exactly this type of politics that Obama wants to change. That is the change he is talking about. He would rather focus on the issues (health care, economy, war, etc.) and policies that can be addressed in the JOB of President rather than the personal characteristics of the person running or in the job, who they associate with, what religion they are, etc. In other words, this is time for a job interview, not a character review.



Every person in the country knows someone with views that could be unsavory to some. I know I do. But how on earth are their views my responsibility? We need to stop holding people in office or running for office accountable for someone else's views - regardless of how they know that person. It's ridiculous to say that Obama has the same views as Wright just because he went to the church for 20 years.



What's important are the views Obama or any candidate holds on the issues that affect every American - again, health care, economy, war, what have you. Do you see Wright's influence on Obama's policy views? Do you see Wright's influence on Obama's conduct in the Senate? Do you see Wright's influence on Obama's conduct in the Illinois legislature? It's Obama's own behavior that should be reviewed, not Wright's.



At the rate this country is going, we're going to start running ads against a candidate just because they have a hang nail.

Pericles
4/30/08
9:02 AM
QUOTE(mam0412 @ Apr 30 2008, 08:35 AM) [snapback]383877[/snapback]


It's ridiculous to say that Obama has the same views as Wright just because he went to the church for 20 years.


It's ridiculous to assume that I'm a protestant just because I've gone to a protestant church for 20 years. I now say that I'm Catholic.

You're statement is aburd. Apparently Obama agreed with the view of the pastor. Or, did he go to a chuch where he disagreed with the views of the pastor, for 20 years?
mam0412
4/30/08
9:46 AM
QUOTE(Pericles @ Apr 30 2008, 09:02 AM) [snapback]383896[/snapback]


It's ridiculous to assume that I'm a protestant just because I've gone to a protestant church for 20 years. I now say that I'm Catholic.

You're statement is aburd. Apparently Obama agreed with the view of the pastor. Or, did he go to a chuch where he disagreed with the views of the pastor, for 20 years?


Pericles, we've been through this. Some people do attend a church where they don't agree 100% with the pastor. Church isn't just about the pastor for some people. It's a social thing, it's a spiritual thing, what have you. There are many reasons to attend a church. Maybe you go to a specific church because of the pastor, but there are some that don't. You need to get past the fact that your way of life isn't necessarily THE way of life. There are way more important things to discuss than what church Obama goes to.
Pericles
4/30/08
9:58 AM
QUOTE(mam0412 @ Apr 30 2008, 09:46 AM) [snapback]383926[/snapback]


Pericles, we've been through this. Some people do attend a church where they don't agree 100% with the pastor. Church isn't just about the pastor for some people. It's a social thing, it's a spiritual thing, what have you. There are many reasons to attend a church. Maybe you go to a specific church because of the pastor, but there are some that don't. You need to get past the fact that your way of life isn't necessarily THE way of life. There are way more important things to discuss than what church Obama goes to.


I could care less what church he attends or his reasons for attending. But let's stop with this foolishness that he never heard any questionable sermons, or that he always opposed the views of his pastor. It's nonsense and we all know it. He got caught up in a controversy.

Obama is a politician and he does what is politically expedient, and right now he has to distance himself from Reverend Wright, and he's doing just that. You want to place him on a pedestal, that somehow he's different from all other politicians, but he's not, even though he says he is.

You may no like it, or agree with it, but it will affect some voters. It doesn't affect me because I won't be voting for him.
Lysol54
4/30/08
10:04 AM
QUOTE(Pericles @ Apr 30 2008, 09:58 AM) [snapback]383933[/snapback]


I could care less what church he attends or his reasons for attending. But let's stop with this foolishness that he never heard any questionable sermons, or that he always opposed the views of his pastor. It's nonsense and we all know it. He got caught up in a controversy.

Obama is a politician and he does what is politically expedient, and right now he has to distance himself from Reverend Wright, and he's doing just that. You want to place him on a pedestal, that somehow he's different from all other politicians, but he's not, even though he says he is.

You may no like it, or agree with it, but it will affect some voters. It doesn't affect me because I won't be voting for him.




You were in the service weren't you Pericles? I'm sure some of your superior officers said things that you probally didn't agree with or even like. But you still had to listen to them. You probally still respected them as men too. You were able to seperate the two cases as well, but Obama is unable to do that? So what if he heard questionable sermons? Every person has differant opinions, you may or may not agree with them. I guess its only the sheep of the Republican party that just blindly follow whatever their leaders say. Because asking questions or being against it is just unpatriotic. dry.gif

But to make as big of a deal as you Repubs are about this whole thing is rather sad. If this is the only thing you guys have to go after him about it just shows how desperate your party really is. Sad really.
Pericles
4/30/08
10:14 AM
QUOTE(Lysol54 @ Apr 30 2008, 10:04 AM) [snapback]383936[/snapback]

You were in the service weren't you Pericles? I'm sure some of your superior officers said things that you probally didn't agree with or even like. But you still had to listen to them.


That is the worst analogy that's ever been written. I'm calling Guinness.
mam0412
4/30/08
10:15 AM
QUOTE(Pericles @ Apr 30 2008, 09:58 AM) [snapback]383933[/snapback]


I could care less what church he attends or his reasons for attending. But let's stop with this foolishness that he never heard any questionable sermons, or that he always opposed the views of his pastor. It's nonsense and we all know it. He got caught up in a controversy.

Obama is a politician and he does what is politically expedient, and right now he has to distance himself from Reverend Wright, and he's doing just that. You want to place him on a pedestal, that somehow he's different from all other politicians, but he's not, even though he says he is.

You may no like it, or agree with it, but it will affect some voters. It doesn't affect me because I won't be voting for him.


So, if you are not planning to vote for him, why the tirade against him? Why do you pretend to care what church he goes to when you say you don't care? You just afraid he's going to be up against your candidate and your candidate doesn't stand a chance? Just asking.



Oh and I agree, let's stop with the foolishness. Pretty foolish of you to pretend to be outraged about something when you say you don't really care.
Pericles
4/30/08
10:16 AM
QUOTE(Lysol54 @ Apr 30 2008, 10:04 AM) [snapback]383936[/snapback]


But to make as big of a deal as you Repubs are about this whole thing is rather sad. If this is the only thing you guys have to go after him about it just shows how desperate your party really is. Sad really.


Wrong again. Clinton supporters are making a big deal of it, not Republicans.
mam0412
4/30/08
10:18 AM
QUOTE(Pericles @ Apr 30 2008, 10:16 AM) [snapback]383949[/snapback]


Wrong again. Clinton supporters are making a big deal of it, not Republicans.


Thanks for the humor, Pericles! Check your previous post. You are a Republican making a big deal out of it are you not?

Lysol54
4/30/08
10:23 AM
QUOTE(Pericles @ Apr 30 2008, 10:16 AM) [snapback]383949[/snapback]


Wrong again. Clinton supporters are making a big deal of it, not Republicans.




Nope i'm pretty sure you were making a big deal out of it, along with Fox News, Rush and all your other Repub talking heads. So like Mam said thanks for the laugh.



QUOTE(Pericles @ Apr 30 2008, 10:14 AM) [snapback]383946[/snapback]


That is the worst analogy that's ever been written. I'm calling Guinness.




Ah yes, the rest of the post too hard for you to read? So rather than comment on the main point of the post you single out that sentance. Oh Pericles your so whitty. If you have nothing but snipping or gossip why don't you keep it to yourself. biggrin.gif



QUOTE(mam0412 @ Apr 30 2008, 10:15 AM) [snapback]383948[/snapback]


Oh and I agree, let's stop with the foolishness. Pretty foolish of you to pretend to be outraged about something when you say you don't really care.




Or we could just call him a liar. Isn't that what politicians do though? The way he always talks hes better than them. dry.gif

Pericles
4/30/08
10:24 AM
QUOTE(mam0412 @ Apr 30 2008, 10:15 AM) [snapback]383948[/snapback]


So, if you are not planning to vote for him, why the tirade against him? Why do you pretend to care what church he goes to when you say you don't care? You just afraid he's going to be up against your candidate and your candidate doesn't stand a chance? Just asking.

Oh and I agree, let's stop with the foolishness. Pretty foolish of you to pretend to be outraged about something when you say you don't really care.


Please stop interpreting my posts inaccurately, and with adjectives that you make up.

My post wasn't a tirade. It was reasonable. I'm not outraged. Never used the term and don't feel that way. I'm not pretending. I'm not afraid of Obama going up against McCain. I also distinctly remember saying I don't care what church he attends. But you say, "Why do you pretend to care about the church he attends?"

If you want to have a rational discussion, you must be rational. Otherwise, you can always talk with Lysol.
Lysol54
4/30/08
10:29 AM
QUOTE(Pericles @ Apr 30 2008, 10:24 AM) [snapback]383954[/snapback]


Please stop interpreting my posts inaccurately, and with adjectives that you make up.



SO its ok when you do it to other people, just not when its done to you? Just making sure. LOL your full of them today aren't you. For and old guy ya sure act like a child sometimes ya know it. biggrin.gif

grieker
4/30/08
10:33 AM
QUOTE(mam0412 @ Apr 30 2008, 08:35 AM) [snapback]383877[/snapback]

I think what people are failing to realize is it is exactly this type of politics that Obama wants to change. That is the change he is talking about. He would rather focus on the issues (health care, economy, war, etc.) and policies that can be addressed in the JOB of President rather than the personal characteristics of the person running or in the job, who they associate with, what religion they are, etc. In other words, this is time for a job interview, not a character review.
Every person in the country knows someone with views that could be unsavory to some. I know I do. But how on earth are their views my responsibility? We need to stop holding people in office or running for office accountable for someone else's views - regardless of how they know that person. It's ridiculous to say that Obama has the same views as Wright just because he went to the church for 20 years.
What's important are the views Obama or any candidate holds on the issues that affect every American - again, health care, economy, war, what have you. Do you see Wright's influence on Obama's policy views? Do you see Wright's influence on Obama's conduct in the Senate? Do you see Wright's influence on Obama's conduct in the Illinois legislature? It's Obama's own behavior that should be reviewed, not Wright's.
At the rate this country is going, we're going to start running ads against a candidate just because they have a hang nail.


I'm sorry, why would anyone associate (let alone be friends) with someone speech is hateful?

It is Obama's own behavior that I am reviewing. His resume' is a bit weak and he's not doing too well in the interview. For that matter, none of them are doing very well in this interview process.

Lysol54
4/30/08
10:36 AM
QUOTE(grieker @ Apr 30 2008, 10:33 AM) [snapback]383961[/snapback]


I'm sorry, why would anyone associate (let alone be friends) with someone speech is hateful?






Well why don't you ask GW that, along with John Mccain. I mean they were/are both close with Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell. Didn't Mccain give a commencement speech at Liberty U?? So its ok for Republicans to do it? Just making sure i understand blink.gif So the new litmus tests for presidents has to be that everyone that they've ever had dealings with throughout their life have to be put under the microscope as well?
8220GRUMPY
4/30/08
10:46 AM
So Obama knew Rev. Wright for 20 years. If he went to church every Sunday (which I am sure he missed a few) that would make it 1040 sermons he heard over those 20 years. Now Obama at first said he never heard Rev. Wright make any of these types of statements rolleyes.gif So he either never went to church, is deaf, is stupid and doesn't understand what he is hearing, believes in what Rev. Wright was saying or he lied.

I understand that not everyone will agree with what their pastor has to say, I know because my grandfather was a pastor and there were things he had said from time to time that I didn't agree with. But to tell people he never heard any of these types of statements is a utter lie. And now we are to believe that he is so different from all the rest of the politicians is BS.

I am not saying Obama shares all of Rev. Wright's views. But 20 years of being around someone and only finding out now what that person is like tells me that Obama is not a very good judge of character or is a liar!

mam0412
4/30/08
11:15 AM
QUOTE(8220GRUMPY @ Apr 30 2008, 10:46 AM) [snapback]383976[/snapback]
So Obama knew Rev. Wright for 20 years. If he went to church every Sunday (which I am sure he missed a few) that would make it 1040 sermons he heard over those 20 years. Now Obama at first said he never heard Rev. Wright make any of these types of statements rolleyes.gif So he either never went to church, is deaf, is stupid and doesn't understand what he is hearing, believes in what Rev. Wright was saying or he lied.

I understand that not everyone will agree with what their pastor has to say, I know because my grandfather was a pastor and there were things he had said from time to time that I didn't agree with. But to tell people he never heard any of these types of statements is a utter lie. And now we are to believe that he is so different from all the rest of the politicians is BS.

I am not saying Obama shares all of Rev. Wright's views. But 20 years of being around someone and only finding out now what that person is like tells me that Obama is not a very good judge of character or is a liar!



Actually Grumpy, I saw I think it was Chris Matthews interviewing an African-American reporter who lived in Chicago for 10 years and who also went to that church. She said she never heard it either.

BeingReal
4/30/08
12:57 PM
QUOTE(Lysol54 @ Apr 30 2008, 10:04 AM) [snapback]383936[/snapback]

You were in the service weren't you Pericles? I'm sure some of your superior officers said things that you probally didn't agree with or even like. But you still had to listen to them. You probally still respected them as men too. You were able to seperate the two cases as well, but Obama is unable to do that? So what if he heard questionable sermons? Every person has differant opinions, you may or may not agree with them. I guess its only the sheep of the Republican party that just blindly follow whatever their leaders say. Because asking questions or being against it is just unpatriotic. dry.gif

But to make as big of a deal as you Repubs are about this whole thing is rather sad. If this is the only thing you guys have to go after him about it just shows how desperate your party really is. Sad really.


I'm not "Repub," Lysol, and it bothers me. Your point about the service doesn't hold water with me because being in the service is a job people sign up to do knowing they don't get to call the shots for a long time (if ever, depending upon their rank). That's not the same as a church a person chooses to belong to. I know plenty of people who have left churches because they do not agree with the pastor's views. In an area like Chicago, there's more than enough other churches for Obama to choose to attend...but he continued to go to this church. My question is why? I'm guessing that his reasoning has a lot to do with political clout/backing, which to me, is not really an appropriate reason to close one's eyes to views such as those held by Reverend Wright.

grieker
4/30/08
1:36 PM
QUOTE(mam0412 @ Apr 30 2008, 11:15 AM) [snapback]383995[/snapback]

Actually Grumpy, I saw I think it was Chris Matthews interviewing an African-American reporter who lived in Chicago for 10 years and who also went to that church. She said she never heard it either.


African-American! Like I'm Euro-American?



Ran across a controversial article by Pat Buchanan, big surprise there.



http://www.buchanan.org/blog/?p=969



Lysol54
4/30/08
1:51 PM
QUOTE(BeingReal @ Apr 30 2008, 12:57 PM) [snapback]384073[/snapback]


I'm not "Repub," Lysol, and it bothers me. Your point about the service doesn't hold water with me because being in the service is a job people sign up to do knowing they don't get to call the shots for a long time (if ever, depending upon their rank). That's not the same as a church a person chooses to belong to. I know plenty of people who have left churches because they do not agree with the pastor's views. In an area like Chicago, there's more than enough other churches for Obama to choose to attend...but he continued to go to this church. My question is why? I'm guessing that his reasoning has a lot to do with political clout/backing, which to me, is not really an appropriate reason to close one's eyes to views such as those held by Reverend Wright.





Thats fine BR. But just as you've said you know a lot of people that left churches, i know a lot of people that have stayed at churches, even though they don't like what the pastor says all the time. Pastors are human. If you want to find a place that always says exactly the way you think it should be, i wish you good luck. Suddenly people think we live in a perfect world and should never have to hear anything that might offend us. People are always going to say things we may or may not agree with, even people very close to us. So the next time a person close to you says someting you don't agree with, make sure you denounce them and cut any ties. I mean thats what your expecting him to do. You say you think its political that he didn't leave? Obama has been in politics how long? I think he was a member of this church before he entered the political fray.
grieker
4/30/08
2:01 PM
QUOTE(Lysol54 @ Apr 30 2008, 01:51 PM) [snapback]384127[/snapback]




Thats fine BR. But just as you've said you know a lot of people that left churches, i know a lot of people that have stayed at churches, even though they don't like what the pastor says all the time. Pastors are human. If you want to find a place that always says exactly the way you think it should be, i wish you good luck. Suddenly people think we live in a perfect world and should never have to hear anything that might offend us. People are always going to say things we may or may not agree with, even people very close to us. So the next time a person close to you says someting you don't agree with, make sure you denounce them and cut any ties. I mean thats what your expecting him to do. You say you think its political that he didn't leave? Obama has been in politics how long? I think he was a member of this church before he entered the political fray.




Get this, 20 YEARS he listened to Wright. Got it?

Now, most people "close to us" don't have a public forum such as Wright does, our "close friend's" comments don't affect thousands.

Lysol54
4/30/08
2:11 PM
QUOTE(grieker @ Apr 30 2008, 02:01 PM) [snapback]384131[/snapback]




Get this, 20 YEARS he listened to Wright. Got it?

Now, most people "close to us" don't have a public forum such as Wright does, our "close friend's" comments don't affect thousands.





YEah and get this, many in the congragation said that they heard anything like that speech during their time at the church, many being there for a decade or more.. Got it? Like i said you Repubs are all perfect, everyone you know is perfect and the world is a perfect place. So his speech affects thousands of people? How is that? His words/choices haven't sent men to die for an unjust war. But keep it up with that Repub spin Grieker. Like i said if this is the only thing you guys can harp on about him, your in for a rude awakening come November. Then the whining is really going to start.
grieker
4/30/08
2:28 PM
QUOTE(Lysol54 @ Apr 30 2008, 02:11 PM) [snapback]384134[/snapback]

YEah and get this, many in the congragation said that they heard anything like that speech during their time at the church, many being there for a decade or more.. Got it? Like i said you Repubs are all perfect, everyone you know is perfect and the world is a perfect place. So his speech affects thousands of people? How is that? His words/choices haven't sent men to die for an unjust war. But keep it up with that Repub spin Grieker. Like i said if this is the only thing you guys can harp on about him, your in for a rude awakening come November. Then the whining is really going to start.




Many have said that they hadn't heard it! When you hear it so often you become desensitized and they wouldn't hear it.



His speech affects thousands because of the size of his congregation.



Ever notice when you go to buy a different car you find one that you like and you buy it, then all of a sudden they seem to be everywhere!



tourman
4/30/08
2:37 PM
Yeah, Grieker...you Repubs are all alike!!! Oh, thats right...you stated quite clearly that you were not- sorry, guess I wasn't listening either.. dry.gif
Bigby_M
4/30/08
3:39 PM
So does that make John McCain right when he said Jerry Falwell was an agent of intolerance or was he right after the flip flop when he kissed his arse?

And was Falwell right when he said America deserved 9/11 because we are sinful?

My My when a left leaning person or a black man says that , they get all shook up. And suddenly patriotic.But nothing on Falwell? Ot Hagee? Or McCain?

Is that a foolish consistency or a foolish inconsistency?

I heard one of them is the hobgoblin of small minds. laugh.gif
Pericles
4/30/08
3:54 PM
QUOTE(BeingReal @ Apr 30 2008, 12:57 PM) [snapback]384073[/snapback]

I'm guessing that his reasoning has a lot to do with political clout/backing, which to me, is not really an appropriate reason to close one's eyes to views such as those held by Reverend Wright.


A motivated young man moves to a new city and tries to determine which church would be most helpful to his aspirations, whether they be political, economic or social. Obama chooses Wright's church. Now that's not so bad.

However, from time to time, Wright makes some incendiary comments and does things that many folks would strongly object to. Yet Obama stays with the church because that's his community and because he does not strongly object to Wright's sermons and actions.

When Obama runs for president Wright's sermons come to light and Obama takes the heat.




BeingReal
4/30/08
4:00 PM
QUOTE(Lysol54 @ Apr 30 2008, 01:51 PM) [snapback]384127[/snapback]

Thats fine BR. But just as you've said you know a lot of people that left churches, i know a lot of people that have stayed at churches, even though they don't like what the pastor says all the time. Pastors are human. If you want to find a place that always says exactly the way you think it should be, i wish you good luck. Suddenly people think we live in a perfect world and should never have to hear anything that might offend us. People are always going to say things we may or may not agree with, even people very close to us. So the next time a person close to you says someting you don't agree with, make sure you denounce them and cut any ties. I mean thats what your expecting him to do. You say you think its political that he didn't leave? Obama has been in politics how long? I think he was a member of this church before he entered the political fray.


Lysol, there's a huge difference between someone who occasionally says something you don't agree with and someone who holds much deeper and more offensive, hate-filled views. Reverend Wright holds such views -- and, as pastor, he's supposed to serve as spiritual adviser to his flock. If we belonged to a church where such views were preached, we would leave. They're simply not based upon the Christian values that we believe in. If someone close to me (but not a family member, which would necessitate a different approach) suddenly became a Neo-Nazi, I would definitely withdraw from that person. Do I feel it necessary to publicly denounce them? No, but I'm also not running for president, having this person make comments about my purported views, etc. like Obama is.



Bear in mind, I never said that I didn't like Obama. I did say that I didn't feel comfortable that, at this point, we really know what we're getting in him. I also said that I felt there's not enough time for me to figure that answer out before the election. Right now, the last thing I'd want to do is cast my vote for someone who later proves to represent many things I don't agree with....been there, done that. dry.gif

ArtVandolay
4/30/08
4:07 PM
QUOTE(Lysol54 @ Apr 30 2008, 10:29 AM) [snapback]383959[/snapback]


SO its ok when you do it to other people, just not when its done to you? Just making sure. LOL your full of them today aren't you. For and old guy ya sure act like a child sometimes ya know it. biggrin.gif





Wright will not be going away, so if you are thinking that, forget it. It's here to stay. As well as any other gaffes that Obama makes in the future due to his linited experience.



Oh yeah I almost forgot - Lysol - try a new act sometime ok? You might find it refreshing. I'll bet the rest of the posters would. It would be like "Wow, what happened to Lysol?" "Can you believe the new Lysol"? "Lysol is so cool now!"







Lysol54
4/30/08
4:14 PM
QUOTE(ArtVandolay @ Apr 30 2008, 04:07 PM) [snapback]384186[/snapback]




Wright will not be going away, so if you are thinking that, forget it. It's here to stay. As well as any other gaffes that Obama makes in the future due to his linited experience.



Oh yeah I almost forgot - Lysol - try a new act sometime ok? You might find it refreshing. I'll bet the rest of the posters would. It would be like "Wow, what happened to Lysol?" "Can you believe the new Lysol"? "Lysol is so cool now!"



I really don't care what the rest of the posters think of me Art. I'm sorry you sit here and worry about what the people on TB think of you. I could care less what you or anyone else thinks of me for that matter. When you try a new act, i'll do the same, till that point i'll just keep being me. Like i said many times, if thats all you Repubs have to go after him with your in for a rude awakening.

grieker
4/30/08
4:31 PM
QUOTE(tourman @ Apr 30 2008, 02:37 PM) [snapback]384153[/snapback]
Yeah, Grieker...you Repubs are all alike!!! Oh, thats right...you stated quite clearly that you were not- sorry, guess I wasn't listening either.. dry.gif


Awwww you remembered.

In my 30 plus years of being eligible to vote I have only voted republican 3 times, so if that makes me a "Repub" so be it.

I want to know about the candidates and haven't to date found enough about Barack.

Shawn
4/30/08
4:35 PM
QUOTE(BeingReal @ Apr 30 2008, 04:00 PM) [snapback]384182[/snapback]

Bear in mind, I never said that I didn't like Obama. I did say that I didn't feel comfortable that, at this point, we really know what we're getting in him. I also said that I felt there's not enough time for me to figure that answer out before the election. Right now, the last thing I'd want to do is cast my vote for someone who later proves to represent many things I don't agree with....been there, done that. dry.gif




So, which candidate is it that you feel you "know" well enough to vote for, and why? How well can you possibly "know" a candidate? They have speech writers telling them what to say, they have publicists shaping public image, and handlers all along the way.



Later...Shawn

BeingReal
4/30/08
4:47 PM
QUOTE(Shawn @ Apr 30 2008, 04:35 PM) [snapback]384198[/snapback]

So, which candidate is it that you feel you "know" well enough to vote for, and why? How well can you possibly "know" a candidate? They have speech writers telling them what to say, they have publicists shaping public image, and handlers all along the way.



Later...Shawn


But despite all of this, the Wright debacle occurred. My point being, of course, that Obama's handlers must have been asleep at the wheel.



Honestly, I'm not certain I "know" any of the candidates well, which is why I'm still undecided. Obama is the least favored candidate for me based upon my comments above. Well, actually, Ron Paul would be further down my voting preferences than Obama.

mam0412
4/30/08
4:54 PM
Question for the panel: How many American Catholics left the Church because of priests molesting children?
BeingReal
4/30/08
4:59 PM
QUOTE(mam0412 @ Apr 30 2008, 04:54 PM) [snapback]384210[/snapback]
Question for the panel: How many American Catholics left the Church because of priests molesting children?


I don't have the statistics on this, but several did (talk to Lysol, I think he was one). I believe there was a recent article about the composition of faith in the US prior to the Pope's visit that noted this.

Lysol54
4/30/08
4:59 PM
QUOTE(BeingReal @ Apr 30 2008, 04:59 PM) [snapback]384214[/snapback]


I don't have the statistics on this, but several did (talk to Lysol, I think he was one). I believe there was a recent article about the composition of faith in the US prior to the Pope's visit that noted this.





What? I've never said i was Catholic?

Bigby_M
4/30/08
5:06 PM
QUOTE(Pericles @ Apr 30 2008, 03:54 PM) [snapback]384180[/snapback]


. Yet Obama stays with the church because that's his community and because he does not strongly object to Wright's sermons and actions.

When Obama runs for president Wright's sermons come to light and Obama takes the heat.






Apparently George W Bush strongly objected when his pastor spoke of peace on earth and all that crap. laugh.gif

Does that make him a man of character.

BeingReal
4/30/08
5:07 PM
QUOTE(Lysol54 @ Apr 30 2008, 04:59 PM) [snapback]384215[/snapback]




What? I've never said i was Catholic?



In prior threads, you lectured me about how a Catholic priest would tell a woman who was being beaten by her abusive husband that she should essentially shut up, return to him, and just take it. I recall other discussions where you challenged me on similar points. In your comments, you've at least created a strong impression that you were a former Catholic if not implied as much. huh.gif

ArtVandolay
4/30/08
5:11 PM
QUOTE(BeingReal @ Apr 30 2008, 05:07 PM) [snapback]384220[/snapback]


In prior threads, you lectured me about how a Catholic priest would tell a woman who was being beaten by her abusive husband that she should essentially shut up, return to him, and just take it. I recall other discussions where you challenged me on similar points. In your comments, you've at least created a strong impression that you were a former Catholic if not implied as much. huh.gif





BUSTED!

Bigby_M
4/30/08
5:15 PM
QUOTE(ArtVandolay @ Apr 30 2008, 04:07 PM) [snapback]384186[/snapback]




Wright will not be going away, so if you are thinking that, forget it. It's here to stay. As well as any other gaffes that Obama makes in the future due to his linited experience.





Your side won't let it go away because in a battle of ideas you guys lose hands down.

McCains ideas are like really bad, mon. No wonder you have to stoop to smearing Obama by association. That speaks volumes of how bankrupt of ideas and morals your side really is.



ArtVandolay
4/30/08
5:18 PM
QUOTE(Shawn @ Apr 30 2008, 04:35 PM) [snapback]384198[/snapback]




So, which candidate is it that you feel you "know" well enough to vote for, and why? How well can you possibly "know" a candidate? They have speech writers telling them what to say, they have publicists shaping public image, and handlers all along the way.



Later...Shawn





You can watch Hillary being interviewed by O'reilly tonight and tomorrow night (part 2). Entire interview is on the radio tomorrow.



Obama was on Chris Wallace Last week.



Wow, what a difference from when the field of Dems refused to debate on Fox earlier this year. Guess they need Fox now!



Remember when Hillary and Pretty Boy, "I'll try to use my wife's disease to my advantage" John Edwards tried to gang up and write off Obama way back when?



Dems eating their own.



Bon Appetit!













Lysol54
4/30/08
5:26 PM
QUOTE(BeingReal @ Apr 30 2008, 05:07 PM) [snapback]384220[/snapback]


In prior threads, you lectured me about how a Catholic priest would tell a woman who was being beaten by her abusive husband that she should essentially shut up, return to him, and just take it. I recall other discussions where you challenged me on similar points. In your comments, you've at least created a strong impression that you were a former Catholic if not implied as much. huh.gif





I have said before that one side of my family is Catholic so i understand some of the workings of the religion but i've never said i was a practicing Catholic. I think you even asked me then if i was a Catholic and i said no. I never implied it either.



QUOTE(ArtVandolay @ Apr 30 2008, 05:11 PM) [snapback]384222[/snapback]




BUSTED!





Ok whatever ya say Art. That the only thing you can bring to the discussion? Busted huh? Yeah too bad i'm not a Catholic so anything BR said really doesn't matter anyway. I had told her before my one side of the family is Catholic. She assumed the rest.
ArtVandolay
4/30/08
5:48 PM
QUOTE(Lysol54 @ Apr 30 2008, 05:26 PM) [snapback]384226[/snapback]




I have said before that one side of my family is Catholic so i understand some of the workings of the religion but i've never said i was a practicing Catholic. I think you even asked me then if i was a Catholic and i said no. I never implied it either.







Ok whatever ya say Art. That the only thing you can bring to the discussion? Busted huh? Yeah too bad i'm not a Catholic so anything BR said really doesn't matter anyway. I had told her before my one side of the family is Catholic. She assumed the rest.






I have never met a Catholic priest who would give the advice you said he did. I am not saying it never could have happened....but not likely.

Either way, ya phonyness is obvious, Lysol - yep that's all I can say but it speaks volumes.

Ya know?





Bigby_M
4/30/08
6:03 PM
QUOTE(ArtVandolay @ Apr 30 2008, 05:18 PM) [snapback]384225[/snapback]




You can watch Hillary being interviewed by O'reilly tonight and tomorrow night (part 2). Entire interview is on the radio tomorrow.



Obama was on Chris Wallace Last week.



Wow, what a difference from when the field of Dems refused to debate on Fox earlier this year. Guess they need Fox now!



Remember when Hillary and Pretty Boy, "I'll try to use my wife's disease to my advantage" John Edwards tried to gang up and write off Obama way back when?



Dems eating their own.



Bon Appetit!















Art have you come up with any ideas yet as to how to save our country?

Yes , the idea that we should let McCain give the Bush Doctrine just 4 more years is a great idea, but why aren't you calling for more surges and even more deficits and even bigger tax cuts for those who don't work?

Where are your balls, man? Stop slammin' Obama and tell us why you want more of the Bush plan. What defines you , man, is it a negative? Is there anything there ?

Or are you so devoid of ideas you must restort to name calling to those who have ideas that you don't like?

Is there anything left of you people worthy of defending or has it come to this?

Stand up for your beliefs , laddie.

Alyssarah1
4/30/08
6:25 PM
[attachmentid=1920]
Lysol54
4/30/08
7:01 PM
QUOTE(ArtVandolay @ Apr 30 2008, 05:48 PM) [snapback]384234[/snapback]






I have never met a Catholic priest who would give the advice you said he did. I am not saying it never could have happened....but not likely.

Either way, ya phonyness is obvious, Lysol - yep that's all I can say but it speaks volumes.

Ya know?




I never said a Priest said those things. THe original post i said thats what a Catholic priest would say, they would excuse the husbands behavior and tell them to give it another shot. Make sure you actually know what your talking about before you just go running at the mouth.
Shawn
4/30/08
7:39 PM
QUOTE(BeingReal @ Apr 30 2008, 04:47 PM) [snapback]384204[/snapback]

But despite all of this, the Wright debacle occurred. My point being, of course, that Obama's handlers must have been asleep at the wheel.




Thats actually one of the things I like about him. It doesn't seem like he needs to or desires to rely on handlers, speech writers, publicists. I feel like he is putting himself out there, not inventing some kind of character. He has accomplished a lot. Written books, excelled in college, championed causes, etc. All on his own without the help of a family with a name. That counts a lot to me. Having said all of that, I still don't see where the Wright thing is a debacle. I attended my church for the first 20 years or so of my life, and listened to the priest say all kinds of things I disagree with. But, I still went to make my parents happy. I've stopped going now, but my parents are still very heavily involved with the Catholic church. Should I be guilty by their association?



Later...Shawn



jetscott
4/30/08
7:56 PM
this is swift boats all over again. Come on people, think for yourselves
ArtVandolay
4/30/08
8:49 PM
QUOTE(Bigby_M @ Apr 30 2008, 06:03 PM) [snapback]384240[/snapback]


Art have you come up with any ideas yet as to how to save our country?

Yes , the idea that we should let McCain give the Bush Doctrine just 4 more years is a great idea, but why aren't you calling for more surges and even more deficits and even bigger tax cuts for those who don't work?

Where are your balls, man? Stop slammin' Obama and tell us why you want more of the Bush plan. What defines you , man, is it a negative? Is there anything there ?

Or are you so devoid of ideas you must restort to name calling to those who have ideas that you don't like?

Is there anything left of you people worthy of defending or has it come to this?

Stand up for your beliefs , laddie.





Your a little off course. Re read the post you are responding to.



I Never slammed Obama, never said I was voting for McCain. I merely posted that Hillary will be on O'Reily and that the Dems need fair and balanced.



RE: Name calling - Check any post that our friend Lysol makes responding to anyone against Lysol's feelings.



Go back and check my posts and what I like to discuss. Media coverage, Fox News, Air America, candidates who dodge issues, and make up excuses on the run are what I follow and talk about. I enjoy watching the Dems go after each other in this absurd campaign that will not go away till Denver. It's part of being American.







Bigmaclender2
4/30/08
9:02 PM
QUOTE(Pericles @ Apr 30 2008, 09:02 AM) [snapback]383896[/snapback]


It's ridiculous to assume that I'm a protestant just because I've gone to a protestant church for 20 years. I now say that I'm Catholic.

You're statement is aburd. Apparently Obama agreed with the view of the pastor. Or, did he go to a chuch where he disagreed with the views of the pastor, for 20 years?




...............they say that you're like the company that you keep.