Is cheap fuel the goal?

April 1st, 2008 2:56 pm · 23 comments

I got all the way through this story this morning on the threatened trucking strike without a real idea of what, exactly, the truckers want - besides lower prices for diesel fuel.

At one point there’s a suggestion that Gov. Rendell ought to elminate Pennsylvania’s diesel fuel tax of 38.1 cents per gallon; and indeed, in this piece we see the organizer of today’s rally in Harrisburg demanding that all state taxes and federal taxes be removed from fuel. That won’t fly, obviously, as that money is used to pay for highway and other infrastructure needs.

You can obviously understand why the truckers feel pinched and want the state or feds to do something about it. But the underlying statement here seems to be that both the commonwealth of Pennsylvania and the federal government should be pursuing the lowest possible fuel prices as a matter of policy.

Is that a desirable goal? Should the overriding goal of government be to keep prices at the pump down? There’s an obvious economic incentive for that, but it also requires other things. For one, it requires a crackdown on the enormous profits of the oil industry - something I’m sure most motorists and truckers would support, though increased regulation is hardly the conservative answer to the problem.

But what of the environmental consequences to a policy that, first and foremost, promotes cheap fuel? What of the national security consequences, in terms of our continued dependence upon foreign oil, and the need then to continue intervening in the area of the world where that oil exists in abundance?

To the extent that high gas prices force innovation and conservation, they are or can be seen as a good thing. If the United States needs to get off the Mideast oil teat, high prices are about the only thing that’s going to force that change. But it will be a disruptive change, no doubt; it may well result in the consolidation of the trucking industry, as the bigger companies have the wherewithal to respond to changing market conditions that the little guys simply can’t handle.

That’s a rather bloodless way for someone not in the trucking industry to put it, of course. I’m just wondering whether a policy with a goal of cheap fuel ultimately draws more blood than it saves.

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  23 comments  Tags: Energy · Economy · Uncategorized

There are currently 23 comments on this blog post
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Bigmaclender2
4/1/08
3:06 PM
QUOTE(Lancaster Online @ Apr 1 2008, 03:00 PM) [snapback]372875[/snapback]


Post your thoughts and comments about this blog post.




Is it me or are these headlines getting "simpler and simpler"???

Uh, yeah, i'm thinking that is the goal.....

What was the goal of me turning off all my electric for Saturday night???? Anyone remember????????????

Probably not too far off the mark on this one either........same concept...........

frankomav47
4/1/08
3:26 PM
I"LL SAY IT AGAIN FOR THOSE WHO DISAGREE !!!!

HIGH FUEL PRICES CREATE HIGHER PRICES FOR EVERYTHING.

I agree that we have to break away from momma's mid-east nipple. But we don't need high oil prices to invoke that.

You guys up there in Dutch Wonderland. How much are you paying for the oil

with which you're heating your house ???

The cost of just getting by is getting close to adding up to more than this cowboy makes!!!

What's going to happen when finally only 40% of the population can afford to buy the products.



GLOOM, DISPAIR and AGONY ON ME,

DEEP DARK DEPRESSION, EXCESSIVE MISERY.

Ever hear that song ??? It's quickly becoming reality. lol_grrr.gif

Bigmaclender2
4/1/08
3:30 PM
QUOTE(frankomav47 @ Apr 1 2008, 03:26 PM) [snapback]372895[/snapback]
I"LL SAY IT AGAIN FOR THOSE WHO DISAGREE !!!!

HIGH FUEL PRICES CREATE HIGHER PRICES FOR EVERYTHING.

I agree that we have to break away from momma's mid-east nipple. But we don't need high oil prices to invoke that.

You guys up there in Dutch Wonderland. How much are you paying for the oil

with which you're heating your house ???

The cost of just getting by is getting close to adding up to more than this cowboy makes!!!

What's going to happen when finally only 40% of the population can afford to buy the products.



GLOOM, DISPAIR and AGONY ON ME,

DEEP DARK DEPRESSION, EXCESSIVE MISERY.

Ever hear that song ??? It's quickly becoming reality. lol_grrr.gif





Nice post, Frank.....



Let me ask you..............can you get flagged, like at a bar, from LOL?????

you know..........when you may have had too much???????

newsjunkie
4/1/08
3:34 PM
QUOTE(Lancaster Online @ Apr 1 2008, 03:00 PM) [snapback]372875[/snapback]


Post your thoughts and comments about this blog post.


This is a very complex topic. The real goal should be a comprehensive national energy plan (No, I'm NOT refering to the current Cheneyesque lets give big oil a break thing we currently call our national energy plan). I'm talking about a plan that recognizes our nations' energy needs and a realistic strategy for attaining those goals. I bet we can't even come to an agreement about what a future society would / should look like...But without that, a realistic energy plan is unattainable. If I were King of the World, my energy plan would focus around electricity generation. And I would push for electric transportation...cars and mass transit. Then as technologies improved for electric generation, the distribution system would already be in place,.. (heck..it already is). I would love to see windmills of many sizes all over neighborhoods...addding to the grid when overproducing for the resident. (try getting that through your neighborhood association). Power is abundant here on earth...we have solar, tidal, geothermal, wind, hydro working EVERY SINGLE day. If as many resources (and subsidies) were put into developing ways of harnessing these sources of power as have been put into oil and nuclear research...we'd not be calling Big oil before congress today... The trouble (and hence the resistence from the business community) is that these sources of energy can be localized. If everyone installed a windmill (or solar) or geothermal or...and got an electric car...what would happen to the $123,000,000,000.00 the oil companies PROFIT each year??? and where would the gov't derive their tax dollars to maintain our roads? Mr. Smart...your question implies that policy through market manipulation of ever higher prices might be desirable??? I say..the ends never justify the means... If it's good policy you're after...how about proposing good policy?

Bigmaclender2
4/1/08
3:53 PM
QUOTE(newsjunkie @ Apr 1 2008, 03:34 PM) [snapback]372902[/snapback]


This is a very complex topic. The real goal should be a comprehensive national energy plan (No, I'm NOT refering to the current Cheneyesque lets give big oil a break thing we currently call our national energy plan). I'm talking about a plan that recognizes our nations' energy needs and a realistic strategy for attaining those goals. I bet we can't even come to an agreement about what a future society would / should look like...But without that, a realistic energy plan is unattainable. If I were King of the World, my energy plan would focus around electricity generation. And I would push for electric transportation...cars and mass transit. Then as technologies improved for electric generation, the distribution system would already be in place,.. (heck..it already is). I would love to see windmills of many sizes all over neighborhoods...addding to the grid when overproducing for the resident. (try getting that through your neighborhood association). Power is abundant here on earth...we have solar, tidal, geothermal, wind, hydro working EVERY SINGLE day. If as many resources (and subsidies) were put into developing ways of harnessing these sources of power as have been put into oil and nuclear research...we'd not be calling Big oil before congress today... The trouble (and hence the resistence from the business community) is that these sources of energy can be localized. If everyone installed a windmill (or solar) or geothermal or...and got an electric car...what would happen to the $123,000,000,000.00 the oil companies PROFIT each year??? and where would the gov't derive their tax dollars to maintain our roads? Mr. Smart...your question implies that policy through market manipulation of ever higher prices might be desirable??? I say..the ends never justify the means... If it's good policy you're after...how about proposing good policy?





Wow-the best post I have seen in quite some time...........WOW N1

frankomav47
4/1/08
4:06 PM
QUOTE(Bigmaclender2 @ Apr 1 2008, 03:30 PM) [snapback]372898[/snapback]




Nice post, Frank.....



Let me ask you..............can you get flagged, like at a bar, from LOL?????

you know..........when you may have had too much???????





If you are referring to yourself , only you can answer that question buddy.

Take a double shot of Nyquil and go to bed ! lol_sleepysmiley.gif









QUOTE(Bigmaclender2 @ Apr 1 2008, 03:53 PM) [snapback]372920[/snapback]




Wow-the best post I have seen in quite some time...........WOW N1





100 % agreemnet from me...Excellent post !!!

johnq
4/1/08
4:25 PM
QUOTE(newsjunkie @ Apr 1 2008, 03:34 PM) [snapback]372902[/snapback]


This is a very complex topic. The real goal should be a comprehensive national energy plan (No, I'm NOT refering to the current Cheneyesque lets give big oil a break thing we currently call our national energy plan). I'm talking about a plan that recognizes our nations' energy needs and a realistic strategy for attaining those goals. I bet we can't even come to an agreement about what a future society would / should look like...But without that, a realistic energy plan is unattainable. If I were King of the World, my energy plan would focus around electricity generation. And I would push for electric transportation...cars and mass transit. Then as technologies improved for electric generation, the distribution system would already be in place,.. (heck..it already is). I would love to see windmills of many sizes all over neighborhoods...addding to the grid when overproducing for the resident. (try getting that through your neighborhood association). Power is abundant here on earth...we have solar, tidal, geothermal, wind, hydro working EVERY SINGLE day. If as many resources (and subsidies) were put into developing ways of harnessing these sources of power as have been put into oil and nuclear research...we'd not be calling Big oil before congress today... The trouble (and hence the resistence from the business community) is that these sources of energy can be localized. If everyone installed a windmill (or solar) or geothermal or...and got an electric car...what would happen to the $123,000,000,000.00 the oil companies PROFIT each year??? and where would the gov't derive their tax dollars to maintain our roads? Mr. Smart...your question implies that policy through market manipulation of ever higher prices might be desirable??? I say..the ends never justify the means... If it's good policy you're after...how about proposing good policy?

I don't agree with everything you said, but overall, you make some good points. Which is why high gas/oil prices should be welcomed. They should be the cause of a shift in the way we generate our energy, and the way we live. Instead, it's a lot of boo-hooing about this and that costing so much. Try examining your life and making some changes that save on your energy consumption and your other costs of living. Or just continue to whine and cry and blame Bush and Big Oil.

Who needs action when you got words. dry.gif

newsjunkie
4/1/08
4:36 PM
QUOTE(johnq @ Apr 1 2008, 04:25 PM) [snapback]372936[/snapback]
I don't agree with everything you said, but overall, you make some good points. Which is why high gas/oil prices should be welcomed. They should be the cause of a shift in the way we generate our energy, and the way we live. Instead, it's a lot of boo-hooing about this and that costing so much. Try examining your life and making some changes that save on your energy consumption and your other costs of living. Or just continue to whine and cry and blame Bush and Big Oil.

Who needs action when you got words. dry.gif

I do not welcome manipulated high oil prices...I would very much welcome a sound energy policy...right now I don't think I'd be allowed to install that windmill...and i'm driving an 8 yr old honda civic, clothes shopping at goodwill, house heated to a whopping 55 degrees all winter, installed newfangled light bulbs, hanging my clothes out to dry weather permitting...and feel quite justified blaming Bush Cheney Congress and big oil.... I got words and action....
Bigmaclender2
4/1/08
4:43 PM
QUOTE(Bigmaclender2 @ Apr 1 2008, 03:30 PM) [snapback]372898[/snapback]




Nice post, Frank.....



Let me ask you..............can you get flagged, like at a bar, from LOL?????

you know..........when you may have had too much???????





I just realized that may have sounded like I was responding to this post but I was referring to me being on here way too long.......sorry.........

johnq
4/1/08
4:49 PM
QUOTE(newsjunkie @ Apr 1 2008, 04:36 PM) [snapback]372943[/snapback]
I do not welcome manipulated high oil prices...I would very much welcome a sound energy policy...right now I don't think I'd be allowed to install that windmill...and i'm driving an 8 yr old honda civic, clothes shopping at goodwill, house heated to a whopping 55 degrees all winter, installed newfangled light bulbs, hanging my clothes out to dry weather permitting...and feel quite justified blaming Bush Cheney Congress and big oil.... I got words and action....
Good for you. You'll be part of the solution rather than part of the problem.







































newsjunkie
4/1/08
5:22 PM
QUOTE(johnq @ Apr 1 2008, 04:49 PM) [snapback]372955[/snapback]
Good for you. You'll be part of the solution rather than part of the problem.







I'm afraid we have a fundamental difference of opinion. Your oft used "who needs actions when you got words" quip...puts down peoples' ideas and at the same time implies that their "actions" will be part of the solution more than their words or ideas....well Look around in this community. We are surrounded by thousands of people who are off the grid. Do you see their actions having ANY influence in the national energy policy? They are no more part of the solution than you or I. Congress can wield so much money at the stroke of a pen that it would take the concerted actions of millions of us to even register on their radar much less drive them towards a solution.... I'm more inclined to believe the pen is mightier than the sword....A man with a pen can bring about more change than a man exercising a personal boycott.... Or to quote a famous book..."In the beginning was the word..."




gsmart
4/1/08
9:19 PM
QUOTE(newsjunkie @ Apr 1 2008, 04:36 PM) [snapback]372943[/snapback]
I do not welcome manipulated high oil prices...I would very much welcome a sound energy policy...right now I don't think I'd be allowed to install that windmill...and i'm driving an 8 yr old honda civic, clothes shopping at goodwill, house heated to a whopping 55 degrees all winter, installed newfangled light bulbs, hanging my clothes out to dry weather permitting...and feel quite justified blaming Bush Cheney Congress and big oil.... I got words and action....


Well, and I think this is the key - though I do think that taxing energy as a means of generating money for infrastructure improvements is sound policy. You could, in fact, make a case that the taxes we levy aren't enough to keep up with those improvements; but any politician making that case would be immediately voted out of office.

Sound energy policy, IMHO, in the future will have to permit you to put up that windmill; it's going to be small solutions, individual solutions, because it will have to be. There needs to be and there could be a greater degree of energy self-sufficiency in this country; it ought to be the goal for the nation on the whole and also for individuals. Though, on a national level - you're pretty much talking nuclear power. Well, maybe that's what it takes. On a personal level, the technology should be made more available (i.e. cheaper) and barriers to its use, be it the homeowner's association or municipal policy, need to be removed.
frankomav47
4/1/08
10:25 PM
QUOTE(Bigmaclender2 @ Apr 1 2008, 04:43 PM) [snapback]372949[/snapback]




I just realized that may have sounded like I was responding to this post but I was referring to me being on here way too long.......sorry.........




It's okay B2, I never took it that way. No apology necessary wink.gif

newsjunkie
4/1/08
10:33 PM
QUOTE(gsmart @ Apr 1 2008, 09:19 PM) [snapback]373005[/snapback]


Well, and I think this is the key - though I do think that taxing energy as a means of generating money for infrastructure improvements is sound policy. You could, in fact, make a case that the taxes we levy aren't enough to keep up with those improvements; but any politician making that case would be immediately voted out of office.

Sound energy policy, IMHO, in the future will have to permit you to put up that windmill; it's going to be small solutions, individual solutions, because it will have to be. There needs to be and there could be a greater degree of energy self-sufficiency in this country; it ought to be the goal for the nation on the whole and also for individuals. Though, on a national level - you're pretty much talking nuclear power. Well, maybe that's what it takes. On a personal level, the technology should be made more available (i.e. cheaper) and barriers to its use, be it the homeowner's association or municipal policy, need to be removed.


I agree that under the current distribution system, taxing of energy makes sense because it can be construed as a user fee and levied proportionally...but if we localized and generated our own energy..it would become like taxing the wind? I am reluctant to assume that the best source of electric energy on a national level would be nuclear. Until we figure out what to do with waste , buildings and land that are contaminated for 20,000 years!!! we need to be looking at other alternatives. ...Localization is kind of like GHW Bush's "1000 points of light." If we had mini generators all over the country using solar, wind, geothermal, hydro and even tidal/ gravitational we could be boosting the system in addition to the larger power generation facilities. The technology already exists to put those little generators back into the system when they aren't being used for home need. Mall rooftops for large solar panels, parking lots generating huge amounts of heat..all sorts of possibilities to be explored and developed(exploited?). I would love to see a policy where the technologies are "more available and barriers removed"...Lets work towards such a goal....

Bigmaclender2
4/2/08
2:29 AM
QUOTE(newsjunkie @ Apr 1 2008, 10:33 PM) [snapback]373039[/snapback]


I agree that under the current distribution system, taxing of energy makes sense because it can be construed as a user fee and levied proportionally...but if we localized and generated our own energy..it would become like taxing the wind? I am reluctant to assume that the best source of electric energy on a national level would be nuclear. Until we figure out what to do with waste , buildings and land that are contaminated for 20,000 years!!! we need to be looking at other alternatives. ...Localization is kind of like GHW Bush's "1000 points of light." If we had mini generators all over the country using solar, wind, geothermal, hydro and even tidal/ gravitational we could be boosting the system in addition to the larger power generation facilities. The technology already exists to put those little generators back into the system when they aren't being used for home need. Mall rooftops for large solar panels, parking lots generating huge amounts of heat..all sorts of possibilities to be explored and developed(exploited?). I would love to see a policy where the technologies are "more available and barriers removed"...Lets work towards such a goal....





All of these sources are still very "limited" overall, according to Time Magazine, April, 2008. We still need many other sources of alternate types to make this work. We need to go to the source of all this mess.....The remorseless economics of commodities markets. The price of soy beans goes up and the forest comes down. Deforestation accounts for 20% of all current carbon emissions. So unless the world can eliminate emissions from all other sources-cars, power plants, factories,even flatulent cows-it needs to reduce deforestation or risk an environmental catastrophe. The forrests in the Amazon are actually collapsing as we speak.....it's horrible. Anyways, in a nutshell, what I am saying is......even though the US leads the world in corn and soybean production, but even if 100% of both crops were turned into fuel, it would be enough to offset just 20% of on-road fuel consumption........and where would that leave us for food. This is only one of MANY examples of the different types of routes we can go. But it is still going to affect us overall, just in different ways is all. I think that more in-deph research really needs to be done here, I really do........

johnq
4/2/08
7:33 AM
QUOTE(newsjunkie @ Apr 1 2008, 05:22 PM) [snapback]372975[/snapback]






I'm afraid we have a fundamental difference of opinion. Your oft used "who needs actions when you got words" quip...puts down peoples' ideas and at the same time implies that their "actions" will be part of the solution more than their words or ideas....well Look around in this community. We are surrounded by thousands of people who are off the grid. Do you see their actions having ANY influence in the national energy policy? They are no more part of the solution than you or I. Congress can wield so much money at the stroke of a pen that it would take the concerted actions of millions of us to even register on their radar much less drive them towards a solution.... I'm more inclined to believe the pen is mightier than the sword....A man with a pen can bring about more change than a man exercising a personal boycott.... Or to quote a famous book..."In the beginning was the word..."




I'm just not inclined to believe that our Federal Govt. will come up with a good energy policy. The track record there is not very good of late. Nor am I inclined to want to Federal Govt. dictate what should be dictated by the markets. As for your actions, they help keep your own energy costs in check. Rely on yourself, not the government.
newsjunkie
4/2/08
10:18 AM
QUOTE(johnq @ Apr 2 2008, 07:33 AM) [snapback]373148[/snapback]
I'm just not inclined to believe that our Federal Govt. will come up with a good energy policy. The track record there is not very good of late. Nor am I inclined to want to Federal Govt. dictate what should be dictated by the markets. As for your actions, they help keep your own energy costs in check. Rely on yourself, not the government.


I agree that the track record of the Federal Govt' is not very good of late...but neither is the track record of "Market Forces"...and this is where we probably differ in political outlooks...You see, I think there are many aspects of life that are not, should not and CAN NOT be determined by market forces...among these is freedom of egress..ie rights of way around the country ...it falls right in there with "certain unailienable RIGHTS: that among these are Life, LIBERTY and the pursuit of Happiness. That, to secure these rights, GOVERNMENTS are instituted among men.... " I want the government to dictate (read provide for and regulate) aspects of civil society for the Commonwealth. I don't want toll roads everywhere I go...to even have to pay to get beyond my own driveway??? You see there are many things about living that the "market" doesn't belong in, but that government can do a good job of handling if the corporations and lobbyists were not permitted to have any influence. I believe that the 'personhood' of corporations is the rot on the roots of our tree of liberty...and if only people had the rights of persons, much of what ails this country would self rectify....but that's another discussion for another day....

johnq
4/2/08
10:43 AM
QUOTE(newsjunkie @ Apr 2 2008, 10:18 AM) [snapback]373219[/snapback]


I agree that the track record of the Federal Govt' is not very good of late...but neither is the track record of "Market Forces"...and this is where we probably differ in political outlooks...You see, I think there are many aspects of life that are not, should not and CAN NOT be determined by market forces...among these is freedom of egress..ie rights of way around the country ...it falls right in there with "certain unailienable RIGHTS: that among these are Life, LIBERTY and the pursuit of Happiness. That, to secure these rights, GOVERNMENTS are instituted among men.... " I want the government to dictate (read provide for and regulate) aspects of civil society for the Commonwealth. I don't want toll roads everywhere I go...to even have to pay to get beyond my own driveway??? You see there are many things about living that the "market" doesn't belong in, but that government can do a good job of handling if the corporations and lobbyists were not permitted to have any influence. I believe that the 'personhood' of corporations is the rot on the roots of our tree of liberty...and if only people had the rights of persons, much of what ails this country would self rectify....but that's another discussion for another day....

The examples you use are rather obvious. Of course I agree that the govt. has a place in regulating certain things. I agree about undo influence by lobbyists these days, bit it would take a political will nobody seems to have to change the current situation. I'm not sure what you mean by "personhood" of corporations. I don't believe corporations have the same rights as individuals.

My point is this. Control what you can about your own life. Don't rely on the government, or anyone else to make your life better. If more people did this, and stopped waiting for the govt. to step in to improve their lives, I believe we would be better off.

As for the market working, pay close attention. When a long time oil man like Boone Pickens starts looking into a $3 billion windmill project, it makes you think.

It took a long time to get where we are now, this won't be changed overnight. I believe too many people have expectations that we should be able to wake up tomorrow and have all the ills of the world solved for them. That won't happen. I just have far more faith in individuals to get the job done than I do the government in this particular case.

newsjunkie
4/2/08
10:56 AM
QUOTE(johnq @ Apr 2 2008, 10:43 AM) [snapback]373232[/snapback]
The examples you use are rather obvious. Of course I agree that the govt. has a place in regulating certain things. I agree about undo influence by lobbyists these days, bit it would take a political will nobody seems to have to change the current situation. I'm not sure what you mean by "personhood" of corporations. I don't believe corporations have the same rights as individuals.

My point is this. Control what you can about your own life. Don't rely on the government, or anyone else to make your life better. If more people did this, and stopped waiting for the govt. to step in to improve their lives, I believe we would be better off.

As for the market working, pay close attention. When a long time oil man like Boone Pickens starts looking into a $3 billion windmill project, it makes you think.

It took a long time to get where we are now, this won't be changed overnight. I believe too many people have expectations that we should be able to wake up tomorrow and have all the ills of the world solved for them. That won't happen. I just have far more faith in individuals to get the job done than I do the government in this particular case.





WRT personhood of corporations check out this web site which does a good job at a pretty quick overview ...sounds like you will be surprised to learn that corporations are considered persons constitutionally (to the detriment of us all if you ask me) http://reclaimdemocracy.org/personhood/ or the following book... Unequal Protection: the Rise of Corporate Dominance and the Theft of Human Rights....



And WRT your other point about relying on yourself...I am in agreement with that philosphy, but frequently find myself stymied because others have wrangled power undeservedly and unfairly...I am a very well educated and hard working person...but am having trouble thriving in the current system...and it is a system that can be modified...and hence I put in my two cents worth...

johnq
4/2/08
11:13 AM
QUOTE(newsjunkie @ Apr 2 2008, 10:56 AM) [snapback]373240[/snapback]




WRT personhood of corporations check out this web site which does a good job at a pretty quick overview ...sounds like you will be surprised to learn that corporations are considered persons constitutionally (to the detriment of us all if you ask me) http://reclaimdemocracy.org/personhood/ or the following book... Unequal Protection: the Rise of Corporate Dominance and the Theft of Human Rights....



And WRT your other point about relying on yourself...I am in agreement with that philosphy, but frequently find myself stymied because others have wrangled power undeservedly and unfairly...I am a very well educated and hard working person...but am having trouble thriving in the current system...and it is a system that can be modified...and hence I put in my two cents worth...

I agree that things can be changed, and I certainly respect those who actually do something along those lines. I just can't sit by and wait for the world to be the way I want it to be. I have to go out and work the current system the best I can to my own advantage.

I am well educated myself. I have a Master's Degree, my wife has a BS. We have worked both hard and smart over the last few years. We've invested in rental properties, been smart with our choice of mortgages, and chosen to live well within our means. This has allowed me to go from a sales job I hated, back to working in a restaurant, which I enjoy. I have saved myself roughly 20 hours/week in work time, for a small decrease in pay, and a huge decrease in stress. We are far better off than we were last year, five years ago, and nine years ago when we were married.

I don't mean to be insulting, but if you are having trouble thriving, you need to look at yourself and what it is you are doing. In any envronment, there are ways to do well, one just needs to find them.

There's an old Taoist story about a man who comes upon a stream under a waterfall one day. He looks into the stream and sees an old man being tossed around by the raging current. After a few minutes, the old man quietly climbs out of the water. The other man asks how he was able to survive to current unscathed. The old man replies that he learned as a young man to ride the current, to let the water take him where it would, and not to fight against it. The water was far too powerful to fight, but by not fighting it, he was able to get where he wanted to go.

newsjunkie
4/2/08
11:22 AM
QUOTE(johnq @ Apr 2 2008, 11:13 AM) [snapback]373245[/snapback]

There's an old Taoist story about a man who comes upon a stream under a waterfall one day. He looks into the stream and sees an old man being tossed around by the raging current. After a few minutes, the old man quietly climbs out of the water. The other man asks how he was able to survive to current unscathed. The old man replies that he learned as a young man to ride the current, to let the water take him where it would, and not to fight against it. The water was far too powerful to fight, but by not fighting it, he was able to get where he wanted to go.





Food for thought...

cyberscribbler
4/2/08
11:53 AM
QUOTE(newsjunkie @ Apr 2 2008, 10:18 AM) [snapback]373219[/snapback]
You see there are many things about living that the "market" doesn't belong in, but that government can do a good job of handling if the corporations and lobbyists were not permitted to have any influence. I believe that the 'personhood' of corporations is the rot on the roots of our tree of liberty...and if only people had the rights of persons, much of what ails this country would self rectify.

It seems Thomas Jefferson (and Thom Hartman) were/are inclined to agree with you. In fact Jefferson wanted to include it in the Bill of Rights -
To Restore Democracy: First Abolish Corporate Personhood

QUOTE
"It has been thought," he wrote in The Rights of Man in 1791, "…that government is a compact between those who govern and those who are governed; but this cannot be true, because it is putting the effect before the cause; for as man must have existed before governments existed, there necessarily was a time when governments did not exist, and consequently there could originally exist no governors to form such a compact with. The fact therefore must be, that the individuals themselves, each in his own personal and sovereign right, entered into a compact with each other to produce a government: and this is the only mode in which governments have a right to arise, and the only principle on which they have a right to exist."Jefferson wrote about his concerns to several people. In a letter to Mr. A. Donald, on February 7th, 1788, he defined the items that should be in a bill of rights: "By a declaration of rights, I mean one which shall stipulate freedom of religion, freedom of the press, freedom of commerce against monopolies, trial by juries in all cases, no suspensions of the habeas corpus, no standing armies. These are fetters against doing evil, which no honest government should decline."


Big Dog
4/2/08
12:04 PM
A national energy policy would be great. In my opinoin, the goals are easily attainable in the next decade or two.



1. Reduce foreign dependence on oil by temporarily drilling in Alaska. Not popular, but within a wholistic energy policy it is a minor issue.

2. Set up tidal power stations along the coast. We have lots of coastline, lets use it. Also has minimal impact on environemnt.

3. Create a national mass transit system that is functional and efficient to use. It consists of high speed rail and local rail. If it works well, people will use it. Amtrak sucks, which is why no one uses it. Actually, I use it everyday to work and then walk 2 miles to work. Maybe Americans are to lazy to take trains.

4. Force car manufacturers to achieve higher mpg for their fleets. Not being able to do it and not wanting to do it are two different things.

5. Develop alternative fuels. Build Nuclear, wind power and keep working on cellulosic ethanol.

6. Start working on infastructure to support switch to alternative fuels.



Thats a start. Anyone else have any ideas.

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