One simple little question

March 18th, 2008 12:27 pm · 41 comments

Reading Obama’s speech, which seems to be a modern-day version of Nixon’s “Checkers” speech in terms of repudiating the now-famous Rev. Wright. But was caught by something more apropos to the discussions that we keep having around here, about Sen. Brubaker’s bill and what it seeks to regulate.

More after the jump.

Obama talks of how the United States Constitution “had at is very core the ideal of equal citizenship under the law; a Constitution that promised its people liberty, and justice, and a union that could be and should be perfected over time.”:

And yet words on a parchment would not be enough to deliver slaves from bondage, or provide men and women of every color and creed their full rights and obligations as citizens of the United States. What would be needed were Americans in successive generations who were willing to do their part - through protests and struggle, on the streets and in the courts, through a civil war and civil disobedience and always at great risk - to narrow that gap between the promise of our ideals and the reality of their time.

Equal citizenship under the law, and the gap between the promise of our ideals and our reality.

Well, that just boils the gay marrige thing right down, doesn’t it?

Conservatives want the debate to be about something other than this. They want it to be about what their Bible says. They want it to be about traditionalism (”We’ve always done it that way” - small wonder this idea should get traction in Lancaster).

More charitably, they want it to be about what they see as a fundamental disconnect in natural terms. There’s an obvious reason for the pairing of men and women, from the physical act to the children it produces. Nature, or God, or whatever you believe in really does seem to have intended it this way. Which makes deviation from it seem, at best, unnatural; and why, then, should society itself sanctify such a thing?

This seems to be the crux of the argument waged by those opposed to gay marriage - to gay equality.

I think the crux of my argument, on the other hand, is contained in the first few lines of Obama’s speech. And I would ask those who oppose gay marriage one, very simple little question:

Do you believe in equality under the law?

You can’t just answer with the quick “of course” and continue to oppose equality under the law, or that the law ensures true equality will never exist. You can’t answer, “Yes, but…” There is no “but.” Or rather historically there has been; but our history, as Obama goes on to note, can be defined as our collective effort to overcome that but. To live up to the promise of our ideals.

Well, do you truly ascribe to that ideal? Understand, it’s not easy - and was never meant to be. Those who articulated the ideal were themselves unable to live up to it; but it’s bigger than we are, bigger than even they were.

Yet this idea, equality under the law, is perhaps the cornerstone of American liberty. The entire edifice of this country, in a legal sense, in a moral sense, is built upon it.

What I fear is happening is that there is a core of Americans who, simply, don’t believe in it.

Equality for them, of course. Equality for those who look like them - yes. Equality even for those who don’t look like them, though that’s a relatively recent thing in our history. But yes.

But, equality for those who simply appear to be wired differently (or who, in their terminology, “choose” to live differently)? No. They really don’t favor that.

But when that’s the case - then you really don’t believe in equality under the law, do you?

Conservatives are always trying to portray liberals as un-American. And if the standard is blind support for everything America does, then yes - conservatives are indeed more “patriotic” than liberals.

But if the standard is fealty to the supposed ideals upon which the country was founded - then it’s liberals who are the patriots, conservatives who argue, ultimately, against those ideals - be it warrantless wiretapping and the idea that the Fourth Amendment is quaint and outdated; or here, where Herculean efforts are undertaken to prevent equality under the law.

There are going to be a million arguments as to why I’ve got this all wrong. But it all comes back to that one, simple little question. Either you believe in equality of law or you don’t.

And if you don’t - will you please knock it off with all the yammering about freedom, already?

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  41 comments  Tags: Gay marriage · Religious conservatism

There are currently 41 comments on this blog post
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Pericles
3/18/08
2:18 PM
QUOTE(Lancaster Online @ Mar 18 2008, 12:30 PM) [snapback]367615[/snapback]


Post your thoughts and comments about this blog post.


But was caught by something more apropos to the discussions that we keep having around here, about Sen. Brubaker’s bill and what it seeks to regulate.

Yes, better to keep beating the same dead horse than to discuss a rather huge story that kind of shatters the myths about Obama.
cyberscribbler
3/18/08
2:47 PM
QUOTE(Pericles @ Mar 18 2008, 02:18 PM) [snapback]367677[/snapback]
discuss a rather huge story that kind of shatters the myths about Obama.

It was one of Obama's points. More comfortable with dialogue raised during the OJ trial or anger over the Katrina response.

A Stalemate we've been stuck in for years.

The checker speech pales in comparison to this.

QUOTE
Just as black anger often proved counterproductive, so have these white resentments distracted attention from the real culprits of the middle class squeeze - a corporate culture rife with inside dealing, questionable accounting practices, and short-term greed; a Washington dominated by lobbyists and special interests; economic policies that favor the few over the many. And yet, to wish away the resentments of white Americans, to label them as misguided or even racist, without recognizing they are grounded in legitimate concerns - this too widens the racial divide, and blocks the path to understanding.

This is where we are right now. It's a racial stalemate we've been stuck in for years. Contrary to the claims of some of my critics, black and white, I have never been so naïve as to believe that we can get beyond our racial divisions in a single election cycle, or with a single candidacy - particularly a candidacy as imperfect as my own.

But I have asserted a firm conviction - a conviction rooted in my faith in God and my faith in the American people - that working together we can move beyond some of our old racial wounds, and that in fact we have no choice is we are to continue on the path of a more perfect union.



Pericles
3/18/08
2:54 PM
QUOTE(cyberscribbler @ Mar 18 2008, 02:47 PM) [snapback]367703[/snapback]

It was one of Obama's points. More comfortable with dialogue raised during the OJ trial or anger over the Katrina response.



It was one of Obama's tactics.

That, coupled with the previous remarks from his wife, certainly gives one cause to question what he really thinks, not what he says he thinks.
Alyssarah1
3/18/08
2:54 PM
You sure fooled me. I thought you might actually have something new to say.[attachmentid=1680]
Pericles
3/18/08
2:56 PM
QUOTE(cyberscribbler @ Mar 18 2008, 02:47 PM) [snapback]367703[/snapback]


A Stalemate we've been stuck in for years.



I don't believe it's static. There have been changes, but some people refuse to recognize those changes, particularly those who have made a career out of profiting from it.


cyberscribbler
3/18/08
3:08 PM
QUOTE(Pericles @ Mar 18 2008, 02:56 PM) [snapback]367708[/snapback]
I don't believe it's static. There have been changes, but some people refuse to recognize those changes, particularly those who have made a career out of profiting from it.
Just as there are those who profit from it staying the same, on both sides of the fence.
QUOTE

certainly gives one cause to question what he really thinks,
Like what he really thought about the Iraq invasion.





Pericles
3/18/08
3:18 PM
QUOTE(cyberscribbler @ Mar 18 2008, 03:08 PM) [snapback]367712[/snapback]

Like what he really thought about the Iraq invasion.


Yes. Had the war been a complete success would he still maintain his position?


QUOTE(cyberscribbler @ Mar 18 2008, 03:08 PM) [snapback]367712[/snapback]
Just as there are those who profit from it staying the same, on both sides of the fence.


Give an example from each side. Please.
dragonrider
3/18/08
3:28 PM
Obviously Louis Farakhan on the black side, on the white side there are just so many republicans that use voter suppression in black neighborhoods are prine example of those on the other.
cyberscribbler
3/18/08
3:30 PM
QUOTE(Pericles @ Mar 18 2008, 03:18 PM) [snapback]367722[/snapback]
Yes. Had the war been a complete success would he still maintain his position?
It speaks of his judgement, not how miserably the invasion and occupation have been carried out.
QUOTE
Give an example from each side. Please.

People who have made a career out of profiting from change or lack thereof.

Well let's see David Duke, Al Sharpton, Rick Santorum, Fred Phelps,
should I go on, or do you have some you'd like to add to the list.

Pericles
3/18/08
3:41 PM
QUOTE(cyberscribbler @ Mar 18 2008, 03:30 PM) [snapback]367744[/snapback]
It speaks of his judgement, not how miserably the invasion and occupation have been carried out.



And here I thought you may be objective. Of course he has excellent judgement, now that he has the benefit of hindsight. But your position is that an obscure state senator from Chicago had a better understanding to the political, military, economic and religious factors in Iraq than long-serving members of Congress with their ear to the ground and in touch with various government and foreign sources.

It's nonsense. Pure political expediency on his part.

Lysol54
3/18/08
3:51 PM
QUOTE(Pericles @ Mar 18 2008, 03:41 PM) [snapback]367750[/snapback]


And here I thought you may be objective. Of course he has excellent judgement, now that he has the benefit of hindsight. But your position is that an obscure state senator from Chicago had a better understanding to the political, military, economic and religious factors in Iraq than long-serving members of Congress with their ear to the ground and in touch with various government and foreign sources.

It's nonsense. Pure political expediency on his part.





Well then Pericles if you want to use that logic, why don't you go back and do alittle research on one of our greatest presidents, Abe Lincoln. He had very little experiance before he made it to the White House and he seemed to do ok. And many of the President that were Washington insiders and had tons of experiance from all over the world ended up being some of our worst presidents. So don't sit there and say that lack of experiance is the deal breaker for a would be president.
Pericles
3/18/08
3:55 PM
QUOTE(Lysol54 @ Mar 18 2008, 03:51 PM) [snapback]367761[/snapback]




Well then Pericles if you want to use that logic, why don't you go back and do alittle research on one of our greatest presidents, Abe Lincoln. He had very little experiance before he made it to the White House and he seemed to do ok. And many of the President that were Washington insiders and had tons of experiance from all over the world ended up being some of our worst presidents. So don't sit there and say that lack of experiance is the deal breaker for a would be president.


He may indeed have excellent judgement, but his position on Iraq doesn't prove it.
cyberscribbler
3/18/08
4:04 PM
QUOTE(Pericles @ Mar 18 2008, 03:41 PM) [snapback]367750[/snapback]
...a better understanding to the political, military, economic and religious factors in Iraq than long-serving members of Congress with their ear to the ground and in touch with various government and foreign sources.
You give them more credit than I do.
Ears to the microphone, eyes on the public opinion polls is more like it.
Pericles
3/18/08
4:10 PM
QUOTE(cyberscribbler @ Mar 18 2008, 04:04 PM) [snapback]367770[/snapback]
You give them more credit than I do.
Ears to the microphone, eyes on the approval polls is more like it.


Isn't Obama feeding from that same trough?

It's just not a reasonable argument that this one man has exhibited better judgement than everyone else because he opposes the war... now.

Hell, I oppose the war now, but were in a quandry too. So I can recognize the reality of what needs to be done and be responsible enough to support that action.


mam0412
3/18/08
4:19 PM
QUOTE(Pericles @ Mar 18 2008, 03:41 PM) [snapback]367750[/snapback]


And here I thought you may be objective. Of course he has excellent judgement, now that he has the benefit of hindsight. But your position is that an obscure state senator from Chicago had a better understanding to the political, military, economic and religious factors in Iraq than long-serving members of Congress with their ear to the ground and in touch with various government and foreign sources.

It's nonsense. Pure political expediency on his part.



I'd say you have it backwards, Pericles. Congress was out of touch with their vote to go to war.

ArtVandolay
3/18/08
4:34 PM
QUOTE(Pericles @ Mar 18 2008, 02:18 PM) [snapback]367677[/snapback]


But was caught by something more apropos to the discussions that we keep having around here, about Sen. Brubaker's bill and what it seeks to regulate.

Yes, better to keep beating the same dead horse than to discuss a rather huge story that kind of shatters the myths about Obama.




As an American, I never want to see the likes of Reverend Wright or

William Ayers, a former member of the radical group the Weather Underground visting the White House, taking any official positions as a represenative of the USA.

If Obama gets to the White House who will preside at inaugaral events as the man who will say grace and benedictions, etc??



Mr. Obama, it's time to fully cut these men off and tell the country how you plan to do it. Now is the time and be specific, please.

easy
3/18/08
10:10 PM
QUOTE(ArtVandolay @ Mar 18 2008, 04:34 PM) [snapback]367784[/snapback]




As an American, I never want to see the likes of Reverend Wright or

William Ayers, a former member of the radical group the Weather Underground visting the White House, taking any official positions as a represenative of the USA.

If Obama gets to the White House who will preside at inaugaral events as the man who will say grace and benedictions, etc??



Mr. Obama, it's time to fully cut these men off and tell the country how you plan to do it. Now is the time and be specific, please.





So, is what is good for the goose, also good for the gander?



found here



QUOTE
When Senator Obama's preacher thundered about racism and injustice Obama suffered smear-by-association. But when my late father -- Religious Right leader Francis Schaeffer -- denounced America and even called for the violent overthrow of the US government, he was invited to lunch with presidents Ford, Reagan and Bush, Sr.



dragonrider
3/18/08
10:22 PM
ahhh more right wing hypocrosy how suprising
charlie_crystle
3/18/08
11:36 PM
QUOTE(dragonrider @ Mar 18 2008, 10:22 PM) [snapback]367882[/snapback]
ahhh more right wing hypocrosy how suprising




Gil, I'm surprised to see you have nothing to say about the Obama speech. This was monumental, the first substantive speech on race by a major politician in our lifetimes. It was incredibly brave, intelligent, unselfish, pragmatic, and wise.

dragonrider
3/18/08
11:40 PM
i just finished reading the speach in its entirity. excellent speech
Typhon
3/19/08
6:25 AM
From his speech, he showed that he is a good orator. We already knew that. There was nothing in it that showed me he is qualified to be president though. That's the problem.

I don't care if he's black, white, purple or green, I care about whether he is ready to lead the country and I don't think he is.

From his speech, I do change my mind about him being VP. It is clear he would make a much better ambassador or perhaps even a cabinet member, but it's becoming increasingly clear that he has not come completely to terms with himself and the world around him.

He does have hope and the desire for change and could make great headway in continuing in the community organizing that he bases all of his experience on.

I'm not trying to put Obama down by saying he's not ready to be president, I'm saying that he simply is not ready for the job YET. Someday perhaps he will be, but with the present situation in the US and world, we don't have the chance to gamble on whether he would hold up under the job or not. Hillary would hold up and has people who are very close to her that could help. McCain would hold up. I can't say that for Obama and I will not cast my vote on a "hope and a promise" when there is real experience and real maturity that are available as alternatives.

Even if I have to vote Republican, I would be doing so knowing my vote would be going to someone who has the history, the experience and the ability to help our country recover from the ills the last 7 years have brought us.

justplainjoe
3/19/08
7:05 AM
QUOTE(ArtVandolay @ Mar 18 2008, 04:34 PM) [snapback]367784[/snapback]




As an American, I never want to see the likes of Reverend Wright or

William Ayers, a former member of the radical group the Weather Underground visting the White House, taking any official positions as a represenative of the USA.





so does that mean you are not okay with a torturer living there?



dragonrider
3/19/08
7:22 AM
I am troubled. On the one hand I understand the anger that black americans feel for US for not fulfilling the promises of equal opportunity. The history of discrimination and the history of lynchings and violence perpetrated against blacks. At the same time Rev Wrights sermons make me uncomfortable. But perhaps as a white american I should be made uncomfortable about race relations in America. Some of his words are definately over the top and unpardonable from a white american perspective. But I have sympathy for some of the issues he raises.



How can we not expect citizens of countries were we overthru their governments and supported US favorable Dictators How can we not expect pent up anger of black america to find release in Church on Sunday. Thats where I try to come to terms with my anger and negative feelings. Why would I expect that experience to be different for Blacks. The Black Church I think is different from my white church experience as it also is about community building. I used to attend a Korean Church with my two Korean children and I can relate that for Koreans the experience of Sunday worship was as much about community building than it was about worship.



Understand that I am not condoning the words of Rev Wrights only trying to understand the source of that anger and what we together need to do move forward. Also I am trying to understand what Obama membership in this church says about Obama. I know that Obama must have been present when some of these things were said. What is his gut reaction to the anger expressed and what does he see as the path forward.

ArtVandolay
3/19/08
7:49 AM
QUOTE(justplainjoe @ Mar 19 2008, 07:05 AM) [snapback]367962[/snapback]


so does that mean you are not okay with a torturer living there?







I really don't see the connection.



Your hate of all things Bush has nothing to do with Obama's speech. I thought we are supposed to "move forward".



So, keep the racist creep out of sight.

Lysol54
3/19/08
7:58 AM
QUOTE(Typhon @ Mar 19 2008, 06:25 AM) [snapback]367959[/snapback]
From his speech, he showed that he is a good orator. We already knew that. There was nothing in it that showed me he is qualified to be president though. That's the problem.

I don't care if he's black, white, purple or green, I care about whether he is ready to lead the country and I don't think he is.

From his speech, I do change my mind about him being VP. It is clear he would make a much better ambassador or perhaps even a cabinet member, but it's becoming increasingly clear that he has not come completely to terms with himself and the world around him.

He does have hope and the desire for change and could make great headway in continuing in the community organizing that he bases all of his experience on.

I'm not trying to put Obama down by saying he's not ready to be president, I'm saying that he simply is not ready for the job YET. Someday perhaps he will be, but with the present situation in the US and world, we don't have the chance to gamble on whether he would hold up under the job or not. Hillary would hold up and has people who are very close to her that could help. McCain would hold up. I can't say that for Obama and I will not cast my vote on a "hope and a promise" when there is real experience and real maturity that are available as alternatives.

Even if I have to vote Republican, I would be doing so knowing my vote would be going to someone who has the history, the experience and the ability to help our country recover from the ills the last 7 years have brought us.





Typhoon i understand where you are coming from with your post, but i think you put a little too much stock in experiance. Take a look back through our history from the Independance onward, many of the leaders in the beginning had no experiance whatsoever beyond some local county seat if they even had that. They formed a Country and made a document that has lasted over 200+ years. It was the measure of the men themselves, not their experiance that got them through. George Washington had never commanded anything larger than a medium sized scouting party, and was put in charge of the whole Continental Army, and he beat the largest, most advanced army of that period. I mean i could go on and on about the Founding Fathers and others of that time and how little experiance they really had. If you get a chance look up Henery Knox and read alittle about him.



But why not look at Lincoln too, he had very little government experiance compared to many of his contemporaries at that time. He led the nation through our darkest hour and is now considered one of our greatest presidents. All with little experiance. Now I would also think that at that time you would have wanted someone with experiance to be in the White House, but the American people didn't think so. There is a lot more to the equation than just experiance, you can't hinge everything on that singular issue. Is it important sure, but as history has shown its not the end all be all of someones abilities to lead.

eaglerick
3/19/08
8:03 AM
How much of this (from Trinity UCC website) does he believe and how does it inform his beliefs, or influence his policies.



We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian... Our roots in the Black religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are an African people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother continent, the cradle of civilization. God has superintended our pilgrimage through the days of slavery, the days of segregation, and the long night of racism. It is God who gives us the strength and courage to continuously address injustice as a people, and as a congregation. We constantly affirm our trust in God through cultural expression of a Black worship service and ministries which address the Black Community.

The Pastor as well as the membership of Trinity United Church of Christ is committed to a 10-point Vision:

A congregation committed to ADORATION.
A congregation preaching SALVATION.
A congregation actively seeking RECONCILIATION.
A congregation with a non-negotiable COMMITMENT TO AFRICA.
A congregation committed to BIBLICAL EDUCATION.
A congregation committed to CULTURAL EDUCATION.
A congregation committed to the HISTORICAL EDUCATION OF AFRICAN PEOPLE IN DIASPORA.
A congregation committed to LIBERATION.
A congregation committed to RESTORATION.
A congregation working towards ECONOMIC PARITY.
Lysol54
3/19/08
8:07 AM
QUOTE(eaglerick @ Mar 19 2008, 08:03 AM) [snapback]367978[/snapback]
How much of this (from Trinity UCC website) does he believe and how does it inform his beliefs, or influence his policies.



We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian... Our roots in the Black religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are an African people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother continent, the cradle of civilization. God has superintended our pilgrimage through the days of slavery, the days of segregation, and the long night of racism. It is God who gives us the strength and courage to continuously address injustice as a people, and as a congregation. We constantly affirm our trust in God through cultural expression of a Black worship service and ministries which address the Black Community.

The Pastor as well as the membership of Trinity United Church of Christ is committed to a 10-point Vision:

A congregation committed to ADORATION.
A congregation preaching SALVATION.
A congregation actively seeking RECONCILIATION.
A congregation with a non-negotiable COMMITMENT TO AFRICA.
A congregation committed to BIBLICAL EDUCATION.
A congregation committed to CULTURAL EDUCATION.
A congregation committed to the HISTORICAL EDUCATION OF AFRICAN PEOPLE IN DIASPORA.
A congregation committed to LIBERATION.
A congregation committed to RESTORATION.
A congregation working towards ECONOMIC PARITY.




At least hes not up there telling us that he talks to God/Jesus and God/Jesus tells him he's doing the right thing.

justplainjoe
3/19/08
8:15 AM
QUOTE(ArtVandolay @ Mar 19 2008, 07:49 AM) [snapback]367976[/snapback]




I really don't see the connection.



Your hate of all things Bush has nothing to do with Obama's speech. I thought we are supposed to "move forward".



So, keep the racist creep out of sight.



the connect , dear art, is that if you don't want a bad person in the white house, does that include someone who tortures people?

quite simple. a small test of consistancy, if you will.

i don't hate the sinner , just the sin.LOL

i do love trotting out all these platitudes that used to be thundered by republicans but are not any longer for obvious reasons.

my favorite being "what would jesus do".



as for this guy being a racist i saw him say that hillary doesn't know what it's like to be called a n.....!

is that racist?

or are you just using this as an excuse to feign indignation like those chaps at fox noise?

dragonrider
3/19/08
8:22 AM
Personally I have no problem with the positions you have posted about the church's policy Eaglerick. I think that policy statement is in keeping with a black community church. What part do you have a problem with.
eaglerick
3/19/08
8:33 AM
you are assuming I disagree...

Personally, I have not formed a conclusion concerning any candidate.

I would have to agree with Obama, I have not always agreed with some things my pastor has shared from the pulpit over the years - however, they weren't quite as incendiary. Any time race is mentioned, it can create unpleasant emotions and feelings (especially coming from a black man to a white man). I do believe that I could take sound bites out of some of his sermons (or some of mine) though that might make him sound racist, anti-Christ, anti-church, anti-community, anti-family, etc. Sound bites have a way of doing that.

My concern is that Obama's insistence that in 20 years, he never heard any of this...
Not personally, not through the church grapevine, nothing from his wife....
His wife's comments seem to suggest that she may have at least heard some of what thet Rev Dr Wright had to say ...

Just not sure ...
cyberscribbler
3/19/08
8:36 AM
I'd encourage everyone to take one Sunday off from their regular church to attend a church/synagogue/mosque/meeting house or what have you once a month.

Visit a Korean, Vietnamese, Hispanic, Black, multi-ethnic. There's many of them out there, even here in little ole' Lancaster County.

As Obama (and many others) have said, the most segregated hour of the week is Sunday morning.

QUOTE
A congregation actively seeking RECONCILIATION.


I could relay experiences of others who attended LCBC and heard condemnation of democrats, but that would not be productive.

What this country needs most right now is reconciliation and a committment to seeking the common ground , between the parties, races, classes.

Now as to the point of is Obama ready to be president? Is America ready to move forward, or stay stuck in neutral?

What do you want the country to do, bomb first, ask questions later (like we've seen play out over the last 5 years) or work relentlessly towards a peacful mutually beneficial resolution to issues with or adversaries. Pick one Iran, Cuba, Venezuela. We can no more afford protracted engagements in any of these or other hot spots around the globe than we can afford to spend ourselves into oblivion, stuck in a quagmire, like the Soviets did in Afghanistan during the 80s.


dragonrider
3/19/08
8:37 AM
Sorry you are right I did make a knee jerk assumption to you post. Perhaps you could give youre own imput. Personally if I was a black american that mission statement would resonate with me.
hahaha
3/19/08
8:46 AM
QUOTE
Is America ready to move forward, or stay stuck in neutral?

That depends. If the driver is going to drive us off a cliff, I would prefer to be stuck in neutral.
philly54
3/19/08
8:53 AM
QUOTE(eaglerick @ Mar 19 2008, 08:03 AM) [snapback]367978[/snapback]
How much of this (from Trinity UCC website) does he believe and how does it inform his beliefs, or influence his policies.



We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian... Our roots in the Black religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are an African people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother continent, the cradle of civilization. God has superintended our pilgrimage through the days of slavery, the days of segregation, and the long night of racism. It is God who gives us the strength and courage to continuously address injustice as a people, and as a congregation. We constantly affirm our trust in God through cultural expression of a Black worship service and ministries which address the Black Community.

The Pastor as well as the membership of Trinity United Church of Christ is committed to a 10-point Vision:

A congregation committed to ADORATION.
A congregation preaching SALVATION.
A congregation actively seeking RECONCILIATION.
A congregation with a non-negotiable COMMITMENT TO AFRICA.
A congregation committed to BIBLICAL EDUCATION.
A congregation committed to CULTURAL EDUCATION.
A congregation committed to the HISTORICAL EDUCATION OF AFRICAN PEOPLE IN DIASPORA.
A congregation committed to LIBERATION.
A congregation committed to RESTORATION.
A congregation working towards ECONOMIC PARITY.


eagle, exactly which part of the above statement or vision points are you concerned about? I guess were looking at this thru different windows but I think you and others might be over reacting and taking this whole thing out of the context that it was originally intended for.



Edit:.. Sorry eagle the post were coming so fast that I see didn't your reply to dragon. I apologize.


mam0412
3/19/08
10:01 AM
QUOTE(ArtVandolay @ Mar 18 2008, 04:34 PM) [snapback]367784[/snapback]

Mr. Obama, it's time to fully cut these men off and tell the country how you plan to do it. Now is the time and be specific, please.


OK Art, for the sake of argument, let's say your minister said something in church that you disagree with. Are you going to automatically quit the church? Are you going to tell your minister how to preach? Are you going to automatically cut ties with a man who provided you with spiritual guidance your whole life? Obama will not cut off his former preacher and I don't blame him one bit. He explained that his congregation consists of a very diverse group of African Americans. Rev Wright must administer to his entire flock, not just the Obamas. You cannot lump all African Americans into the same bucket. They are as split by class as the white community. Obama showed he understands the plight of all classes (as well as all colors, ethnicities, etc.) and understands the role of his preacher to all those diverse folks. And a President must be President to the entire country. Not just to a bunch of white people.
LicenseForMayhem
3/19/08
10:17 AM
I have to think that everyone who attends a place of worship (or even other venues where a speaker's words are subjective) will at times hear something with which he disagrees. Most people, however, are not going to run immediately out the door--a church is a community, too, in which people often have a lot invested.

From this morning's news, it seems Obama is now saying he has heard things from Wright with which he disagreed. I don't think that's a big deal.
cyberscribbler
3/19/08
10:29 AM
QUOTE(hahaha @ Mar 19 2008, 08:46 AM) [snapback]367998[/snapback]
If the driver is going to drive us off a cliff, I would prefer to be stuck in neutral.

Thanks in most part to the recent drivers, I can see the cliff. You choose not to.

hahaha
3/19/08
10:39 AM
That is where difference of opinion comes in and why we are all free to choose the driver that we think will drive the best. You may see a cliff where as I may see a mole hill or vice-versa.
philly54
3/19/08
12:15 PM
QUOTE(LicenseForMayhem @ Mar 19 2008, 10:17 AM) [snapback]368038[/snapback]


From this morning's news, it seems Obama is now saying he has heard things from Wright with which he disagreed. I don't think that's a big deal.




LFM, actually he included that in his speech Tuesday morning, he also tried to explain to the black community why so many whites feel anger when it comes to such things as affirmative action,ect! So his speech wasn't simply a attempt to explain his feelings about his former pastor. It went far beyond that. Which makes me wonder if any of those people that still insist in some way that his a racist actually saw or read his speech.

Typhon
3/19/08
7:46 PM

QUOTE(Lysol54 @ Mar 19 2008, 07:58 AM) [snapback]367977[/snapback]




Typhoon i understand where you are coming from with your post, but i think you put a little too much stock in experiance. Take a look back through our history from the Independance onward, many of the leaders in the beginning had no experiance whatsoever beyond some local county seat if they even had that. They formed a Country and made a document that has lasted over 200+ years. It was the measure of the men themselves, not their experiance that got them through. George Washington had never commanded anything larger than a medium sized scouting party, and was put in charge of the whole Continental Army, and he beat the largest, most advanced army of that period. I mean i could go on and on about the Founding Fathers and others of that time and how little experiance they really had. If you get a chance look up Henery Knox and read alittle about him.



But why not look at Lincoln too, he had very little government experiance compared to many of his contemporaries at that time. He led the nation through our darkest hour and is now considered one of our greatest presidents. All with little experiance. Now I would also think that at that time you would have wanted someone with experiance to be in the White House, but the American people didn't think so. There is a lot more to the equation than just experiance, you can't hinge everything on that singular issue. Is it important sure, but as history has shown its not the end all be all of someones abilities to lead.





I hear you, I really do. But, at this point in our lives, with all that's going on, I dont' feel comfortable taking a chance on someone who speaks well when there are two other candidates who have weathered similar circumstances and have years under their belts to witness to their ability to fix some of the major problems.

I can't justify voting for Obama just to satisfy my idealistic side. 10 years ago, maybe, but today, now that I have a family to care for, a mortgage, a career and I'm more stable, the risks aren't as easy to take.

I guess I'm just not willing to be the farm that he is what he says he is and can do what he says he can do.

In light of his comments about going along with a revote if the DNC signed off and the other campaign signed off and then changing his mind after those things happened in Michigan, I find him not quick to stick to his words and that worries me a great deal.

Experience isn't my only consideration, although it is a big one. There's also a matter of being vetted, of whether the person we see is really the person we get. We know John McCain, he's been in the public eye, we know how he has performed before. The same with Hillary. She may not be the most pleasant person, but she is an excellent leader. There's also an issue of trust. I've seen follow through with McCain, I've seen follow through with Clinton. With Obama, I've seen him make a statement about elections and then change his mind when the criteria was met. That part bothers me a great deal.

I also feel you can tell much about a person by the company they keep. The company Obama has kept has not been good company. One could say the same about the other two, but Obama has so many more along with the ties to radical Islamists. Granted, I believe entirely he is not Islamic, but I know that his half brother IS a radical Islamist, I know that many of his family members in Kenya are radical Islamists. I know that he tried to feed us the story of growing up as a "poor black child" only to find out he attended private schools and was in the upper middle class growing up. He may not have been born with a silver spoon in his mouth, but they had them in the china cabinet. I feel like he hasn't been honest about the things he has said.

When I look at his earliest speeches and compare them with speeches now, I see differences that contradict themselves and I see a change in his rhetoric leaning toward more attackful language he claimed he would not use. I've seen him disreguard the "words" he said previously for "new improved" words and I've seen him try to use the emotions of the electorate to justify not distancing himself from someone who gave very anti-American speeches.

I guess the bottom line is, I don't trust him. I want to trust him. I want him to be the man he says he is. But I don't think he is. I'm not convinced and I'm not willing to take the chance that could mean the continuance or the destruction of our country on the shoulders of someone who wants us to "just believe we can".

No, I just don't trust him.



Typhon
3/19/08
8:02 PM
QUOTE(mam0412 @ Mar 19 2008, 10:01 AM) [snapback]368025[/snapback]


OK Art, for the sake of argument, let's say your minister said something in church that you disagree with. Are you going to automatically quit the church? Are you going to tell your minister how to preach? Are you going to automatically cut ties with a man who provided you with spiritual guidance your whole life? Obama will not cut off his former preacher and I don't blame him one bit. He explained that his congregation consists of a very diverse group of African Americans. Rev Wright must administer to his entire flock, not just the Obamas. You cannot lump all African Americans into the same bucket. They are as split by class as the white community. Obama showed he understands the plight of all classes (as well as all colors, ethnicities, etc.) and understands the role of his preacher to all those diverse folks. And a President must be President to the entire country. Not just to a bunch of white people.




To the church's credit, there are also white members.

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