Depends on who the ‘enemy’ is

March 18th, 2008 9:30 am · 23 comments

Via Sullivan, Julian Sanchez has a piece in the L.A. Times which points out that the real danger of warrantless wiretapping isn’t that it will be used to repress innocent, average Americans - but that those who hold the reins of power will be unable to resist the temptation to use it against political opponents and other political “extremists”:

Harvard University legal scholar William Stuntz has argued that the framers of the Constitution viewed the 4th Amendment as a mechanism for protecting political dissent. In England, agents of the crown had ransacked the homes of pamphleteers critical of the king — something the founders resolved that the American system would not countenance.

In that light, the security-versus-privacy framing of the contemporary FISA debate seems oddly incomplete. Your personal phone calls and e-mails may be of limited interest to the spymasters of Langley and Ft. Meade. But if you think an executive branch unchecked by courts won’t turn its “national security” surveillance powers to political ends — well, it would be a first.

Conservatives rarely object to this because as things stand now - they have little problem turning the “national security” surveillance powers on the likes of Cindy Sheehan or Code Pink, whom they see as un-American and perhaps even a security threat.

But one of the hallmarks of modern conservatism is its inability to look 10 years down the road, or its disinterest in doing so. As we’ve asked time and again: What happens if or when a President Hillary and a Democratic Congress get hold of these broad new, legally defined surveillance powers?

What if it’s not Code Pink who’s being watched - but posters to right-wing blogs like Little Green Footballs? Or those who donate to John Hagee’s church?

What Wright suggests, and I think he’s absolutely right, is that if Republicans (and weak-kneed Democrats) permit this now, the authority will be abused - not just by Republicans, but also by Democrats. It will be used against conservatives. And the rationale offered for public consumption will sound entirely plausible. It’s a simple matter to portray conservatives as wild-eyed extremists - just as it’s easy to do the same to liberals.

As an aside, though: Since when did conservatives become so trusting of government? The crowd who wants term limits because politicians can’t be trusted in office beyond a certain point really want to give this kind of authority to government - when in fact our founding documents were predicated on the belief that they shouldn’t have it, that - as Sanchez notes - loyalists then would have made the exact same arguments conservatives make now?

So the moral of the story is, I suppose, that politicians aren’t to be trusted - unless they are. Smaller government is good, unless we decide big government is better, in which case government can never have too much power - so long as we’re clear on what the definition of “enemy” is.

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  23 comments  Tags: Warrantless wiretapping

There are currently 23 comments on this blog post
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Pericles
3/18/08
11:40 AM
QUOTE(Lancaster Online @ Mar 18 2008, 09:35 AM) [snapback]367507[/snapback]


Post your thoughts and comments about this blog post.


Given the propensity of government officials to leal like a sieve, how long do you suspect the government would be able to abuse their surveillance powers without it being leaked to the New York Times or Washingon Post?

You would weaken our ability to detect and deter the real threat of terrorism based on the mere potential of the abuse of that power.

Unfortunately, your paranoia of what could be, threatens the welfare of my grandchildren from a very real danger. You assert a position that could result in actual harm to people I care about.

I guess I'm curious as to why you believe you have the moral right to do this.

Lysol54
3/18/08
11:48 AM
Pericles that is one of the weakest arguements i think i've ever seen. So because of the fact that there could be another terror attack you think its ok to give up your civil liberties? I'm sorry but i would rather take the risk and keep my liberties than to give the government power to snoop on everyone, carte blanche. For a "Republican" i can't believe you posted that. But then again, just seems to me your blindly following good old GW. Thought you told me you could think for yourself?? Oh and btw, how many people have been killed by terrosim in this country? and how many die every year from regular crimes?? Like i said in another thread, is it possible for Repubs to rule by anything other than fear??

Funny how you mention your grandkids now. I love how Repubs pick and chose when to bring up the next generation. I mean when its comes to destroying our financial markets, igonring our Constitution they really don't seem to matter, but now we are talking about warrentless wiretapping and suddenly your grandkids aren't going to be safe otherwise.
Pericles
3/18/08
11:53 AM
QUOTE(Lysol54 @ Mar 18 2008, 11:48 AM) [snapback]367585[/snapback]
Pericles that is one of the weakest arguements i think i've ever seen. So because of the fact that there could be another terror attack you think its ok to give up your civil liberties? I'm sorry but i would rather take the risk and keep my liberties than to give the government power to snoop on everyone, carte blanche. For a "Republican" i can't believe you posted that. But then again, just seems to me your blindly following good old GW. Thought you told me you could think for yourself?? Oh and btw, how many people have been killed by terrosim in this country? and how many die every year from regular crimes?? Like i said in another thread, is it possible for Repubs to rule by anything other than fear??


I haven't given up any civil liberties nor have you, and please stop with the nonsensical Bush rhetoric, it's just ranting.

Lysol54
3/18/08
11:57 AM
QUOTE(Pericles @ Mar 18 2008, 11:53 AM) [snapback]367589[/snapback]


I haven't given up any civil liberties nor have you, and please stop with the nonsensical Bush rhetoric, it's just ranting.





Would you stop with the typical Repub rhetoric its just ranting. biggrin.gif That seems to be your response du jour lately. "Oh its just a rant." Time to think of something new bud, its getting old. So being listened to without any type of warrent or oversight isn't lossing your civil liberties? What rock are you living under?? I thought you Repubs were for less government control and intervention?? Guess thats just a line you like to feed people then??

Pericles
3/18/08
12:05 PM
QUOTE(Lysol54 @ Mar 18 2008, 11:57 AM) [snapback]367591[/snapback]




Would you stop with the typical Repub rhetoric its just ranting. biggrin.gif That seems to be your response du jour lately. "Oh its just a rant." Time to think of something new bud, its getting old. So being listened to without any type of warrent or oversight isn't lossing your civil liberties? What rock are you living under?? I thought you Repubs were for less government control and intervention?? Guess thats just a line you like to feed people then??



Quite honestly I'd rather hear from Gil. Although I disagree with him most of the time, he always presents a rational argument.
gsmart
3/18/08
12:05 PM
Pericles, I reiterate exactly what I said in the post: Your argument is the exact same argument used by loyalists prior to the American Revolution; your argument is the exact reason why the Fourth Amendment exists in the first place.



1775: You would weaken our ability to detect and deter the real threat of colonial insurrection based on the mere potential of the abuse of that power.



Pericles, you're far too intelligent not to recognize the direct historical parallels. What you seem to be saying is that you deem the current threat to be so different - and you are so terrorized and frightened by it - that you are, in fact, willing to trade away Fourth Amendment rights - mine, yours, your kids' and mine.



I'd say that you have no moral right to do this.



But beyond this - I'm impressed with your intrinsic trust in government. For I'm sure goverment at the top, federal level is somehow more inherently trustworthy than that here in Lancaster, on the local level.

Lysol54
3/18/08
12:09 PM
QUOTE(Pericles @ Mar 18 2008, 12:05 PM) [snapback]367597[/snapback]


Quite honestly I'd rather hear from Gil. Although I disagree with him most of the time, he always presents a rational argument.




Thats great. I'm not quite sure why you think your argement is rational and mine is not, but whatever ya say bud. Just because you say it doesn't make it so. And even when your shown examples, facts, etc you'll still sit there and flatly deny it. You do it on just about every thread here. But you can keep living in your own little world. I'm just sorry you can't take someone arguing with you and you get that upset about it.

But whatever you say, your not losing your civil liberties. And the Republican party is the party of small government. Maybe back when you were a kid, but not anymore.
dragonrider
3/18/08
12:16 PM
This willingness to give up civil rights for the war on terrorism scares me more than terrorism. I remember the release on how Hoover had files on everyone and used that information to blackmail people into doing his wishes. Is this really what republicans want to return to. How much intrusion into our private lives do republicans really want. Why do you care what books I read at the library or what web sites I visit. just so we can arrest some pizza delivery drivers who didn't have a clue how to carry out a terrorist attack but sure makes good headlines.
justplainjoe
3/18/08
12:42 PM
QUOTE(Pericles @ Mar 18 2008, 11:53 AM) [snapback]367589[/snapback]


I haven't given up any civil liberties nor have you, and please stop with the nonsensical Bush rhetoric, it's just ranting.



if you want to see what an amateur moron your boy really is then please read about something else this incompetent fool !profanity!ed up and the lives lost because of his immense stupidity.and you respect this guy??

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/feature...8/04/gaza200804





Vanity Fair has obtained confidential documents, since corroborated by sources in the U.S. and Palestine, which lay bare a covert initiative, approved by Bush and implemented by Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Deputy National Security Adviser Elliott Abrams, to provoke a Palestinian civil war. The plan was for forces led by Dahlan, and armed with new weapons supplied at America’s behest, to give Fatah the muscle it needed to remove the democratically elected Hamas-led government from power. (The State Department declined to comment.)







lee41
3/18/08
1:08 PM
Bush broke the law in 2002 and authorized the NSA to wiretap Americans. Because he is the decider and decided as President he could ignore any law that prevented him from doing what he wanted.

According to a former AT&T Tech, they are using a Narus STA 6400:

http://www.narus.com/products/index.html

This the supposedly 'dead' Total Information Awareness, which was first given life in early 2003 - the same time as the 'secret' room on Folsom Street in San Francisco.

In today's world, information is power, and like any power, it can be abused. The only protection from this abuse is/was FISA.
Pericles
3/18/08
1:20 PM
QUOTE(gsmart @ Mar 18 2008, 12:05 PM) [snapback]367598[/snapback]
Pericles, I reiterate exactly what I said in the post: Your argument is the exact same argument used by loyalists prior to the American Revolution; your argument is the exact reason why the Fourth Amendment exists in the first place.



1775: You would weaken our ability to detect and deter the real threat of colonial insurrection based on the mere potential of the abuse of that power.



Pericles, you're far too intelligent not to recognize the direct historical parallels. What you seem to be saying is that you deem the current threat to be so different - and you are so terrorized and frightened by it - that you are, in fact, willing to trade away Fourth Amendment rights - mine, yours, your kids' and mine.



I'd say that you have no moral right to do this.



But beyond this - I'm impressed with your intrinsic trust in government. For I'm sure goverment at the top, federal level is somehow more inherently trustworthy than that here in Lancaster, on the local level.



Then I suppose that your arguments are the same that allowed us to drop our guard and impose the walls and convoluted rules that allowed 9/11 to occur.

I do trust the government, certainly a heck of a lot more than I trust Al Qaeda to exercise any restraint. Since we all know that the government consists of thousands of people, very little can occur in secret, especially when it involves malfeasance.

I seems to me that we were all willing to give up some liberties after 9/11, because we wanted the government to protect us. But since six years have passed without another attack, we are lulled back to pre 9/11 thinking, mistrusting the power of the government.

The inevitable outcome of a massive terrorist attack involving nuclear, biological or chemical weapons on a US city will be the loss of all our rights, martial law, the destruction of our economy, and possibly WW III.

You may not believe that is possible, but I do. I would prefer to give the government a little now, rather than giving them everything later.

QUOTE(lee41 @ Mar 18 2008, 01:08 PM) [snapback]367626[/snapback]
Bush broke the law in 2002 and authorized the NSA to wiretap Americans. Because he is the decider and decided as President he could ignore any law that prevented him from doing what he wanted.



That's opinion that he broke the law and an unfair interpretation to "wiretap Americans."

But what was the purpose and the outcome?
Lysol54
3/18/08
1:21 PM
QUOTE(Pericles @ Mar 18 2008, 01:20 PM) [snapback]367630[/snapback]



That's opinion that he broke the law and an unfair interpretation to "wiretap Americans."

But what was the purpose and the outcome?




Show me your source that says thats an opinion.

dragonrider
3/18/08
1:36 PM
Source: one does not seek immunity for something that is not illegal DUH!!!
Pericles
3/18/08
1:47 PM
QUOTE(justplainjoe @ Mar 18 2008, 12:42 PM) [snapback]367617[/snapback]


if you want to see what an amateur moron your boy really is then please read about something else this incompetent fool !profanity!ed up and the lives lost because of his immense stupidity.and you respect this guy??

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/feature...8/04/gaza200804


Vanity Fair has obtained confidential documents, since corroborated by sources in the U.S. and Palestine, which lay bare a covert initiative, approved by Bush and implemented by Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Deputy National Security Adviser Elliott Abrams, to provoke a Palestinian civil war. The plan was for forces led by Dahlan, and armed with new weapons supplied at America's behest, to give Fatah the muscle it needed to remove the democratically elected Hamas-led government from power. (The State Department declined to comment.)



Vanity Fair has obtained confidential documents, since corroborated by sources in the U.S. and Palestine, which lay bare a covert initiative, approved by Bush and implemented by Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice....

While you were making your point, you also proved mine - nothing stays secret these days. We'll know when abuses of power occur.


gsmart
3/18/08
2:26 PM
QUOTE(Pericles @ Mar 18 2008, 01:20 PM) [snapback]367630[/snapback]


You may not believe that is possible, but I do. I would prefer to give the government a little now, rather than giving them everything later.




My point is that once you've opened the door you're ultimately going to give it all, whether you like it or not.



But I tell you what I would be interested in seeing - vast new criminal penalties instituted for those who do use the surveillance machinery to spy on political opponents or law-abiding protestors. Let us make provisions for the utmost in punishment - and here I'm talking actual charges of treason - against any who dare misuse these powers. Pass the law now and perhaps (but only perhaps) the age-old temptation to abuse this authority and capability is quelled.

Pericles
3/18/08
2:38 PM
QUOTE(gsmart @ Mar 18 2008, 02:26 PM) [snapback]367682[/snapback]



But I tell you what I would be interested in seeing - vast new criminal penalties instituted for those who do use the surveillance machinery to spy on political opponents or law-abiding protestors. Let us make provisions for the utmost in punishment - and here I'm talking actual charges of treason - against any who dare misuse these powers. Pass the law now and perhaps (but only perhaps) the age-old temptation to abuse this authority and capability is quelled.



Noblesse oblige - and if you abuse your authority for personal or political gains, you go to jail and we throw away the key.


dragonrider
3/18/08
3:30 PM
Yeah right you can't even impeach a known war criminal like Bush and Cheney and you think that those who violate the espionage act are going to get convicted. Whatever you are smoking pass it around , don't bogart that joint my friend
Pericles
3/18/08
3:48 PM
QUOTE(dragonrider @ Mar 18 2008, 03:30 PM) [snapback]367745[/snapback]
Yeah right you can't even impeach a known war criminal like Bush and Cheney and you think that those who violate the espionage act are going to get convicted. Whatever you are smoking pass it around , don't bogart that joint my friend


There are people on this board that are far left of center with whom I disagree on most everything, but they have a high level of intellect and are able to express themselves well.

You are a member of the former but not the latter.


dragonrider
3/18/08
4:07 PM
And now my feelings are to be hurt, sorry to disappoint you
citydweller
3/18/08
6:03 PM
QUOTE(Pericles @ Mar 18 2008, 01:47 PM) [snapback]367657[/snapback]

While you were making your point, you also proved mine - nothing stays secret these days. We'll know when abuses of power occur.


Exactly what solace are we to gain from this knowledge, when nothing has been, or will be done about it? You're basically saying "Well yeah they're f*kiing us, but at least we know about it". huh.gif

QUOTE
The inevitable outcome of a massive terrorist attack involving nuclear, biological or chemical weapons on a US city will be the loss of all our rights, martial law, the destruction of our economy, and possibly WW III.


blink.gif blink.gif blink.gif

Pericles you really need to catch up on the news. The sun ain't exactly shining bright over Freedom Land wink.gif
Gates of Eden
3/18/08
9:13 PM
QUOTE(Pericles @ Mar 18 2008, 11:40 AM) [snapback]367579[/snapback]




You would weaken our ability to detect and deter the real threat of terrorism based on the mere potential of the abuse of that power.

Unfortunately, your paranoia of what could be, threatens the welfare of my grandchildren from a very real danger. You assert a position that could result in actual harm to people I care about.




You are turned around on what you perceive. Take the time to watch this:
[googlevideo]2081592330319789254[/googlevideo]

May I be surprised by your response. Not likely though.


Lysol54
3/18/08
9:36 PM
QUOTE(Pericles @ Mar 18 2008, 03:48 PM) [snapback]367758[/snapback]


There are people on this board that are far left of center with whom I disagree on most everything, but they have a high level of intellect and are able to express themselves well.

You are a member of the former but not the latter.






It must suck to be as smart as you are. dry.gif Typical elitist Republican thinking. Only people with your advanced knowledge could even hope to engage in conversation with you. blink.gif Get over yourself Pericles. So rather than engage people you will just tell them how they cannot express themselves enough for you to warrent a reply. Wow you are one arrogant guy. But your wonderful President can't even complete a full sentance without the help of a tele-prompter. Funny you'll defend someone like that and then sit on this board and talk down to people because their posts aren't up to your caliber. You my friend are a hypocrite.
bigstew
3/18/08
9:36 PM
QUOTE(gsmart @ Mar 18 2008, 02:26 PM) [snapback]367682[/snapback]




My point is that once you've opened the door you're ultimately going to give it all, whether you like it or not.



But I tell you what I would be interested in seeing - vast new criminal penalties instituted for those who do use the surveillance machinery to spy on political opponents or law-abiding protestors. Let us make provisions for the utmost in punishment - and here I'm talking actual charges of treason - against any who dare misuse these powers. Pass the law now and perhaps (but only perhaps) the age-old temptation to abuse this authority and capability is quelled.

We have to be aware of the temptation of politicians to use the criminalization of politics.
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