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If the war was about removing Sadam from power and WMD's, The why are we still there, Mission accomplished time to go home!!!!!!

Now I'm confused. I thought the war in Iraq was about oil.

I'm having a hard time understanding your reasoning Gil when you keep changing your position to suit your latest article.

BTW, the war in Iraq was about removing Saddam from power and separating him from WMDs. Establishing democracy was never the promary goal and you know it.

Of course this doesn't fit the subject line so........

Now I'm confused. I thought the war in Iraq was about oil.

I'm having a hard time understanding your reasoning Gil when you keep changing your position to suit your latest article.

BTW, the war in Iraq was about removing Saddam from power and separating him from WMDs. Establishing democracy was never the promary goal and you know it.

Of course this doesn't fit the subject line so........

BTW, the war in Iraq was about removing Saddam from power and separating him from WMDs. Establishing democracy was never the promary goal and you know it.

Dragonrider rants and misses the point. Shillness is a substitute intellect, but not a good substitue.

So are you admitting now, Pericles, that while the administration used these arguments - it was all a bamboozle, all a bunch of bull intended to move public opinion? Or did the architects of this war actually believe it?

Given the lack of WMD and the unintended consequences of an insurgency and civil war, the reality of what we were facing changed as did our goals and the justification for our continued presence in Iraq.

Some may be making a "Wilsonian" argument now, because pragmitism dictates it, but it's disingenuous for you to say that establishing a democracy was the primary motivation towards war.

And I'm not saying it was the primary motivation for the war - but it was one of the justifications for it, and an important one in terms of motivating the public to back our little adventure. Look how magnanimous we are!

Again, what I don't know is how many conservatives, or which conservatives, actually believed this. Christian conservatives I think leaned most heavily upon it, as it provided the moral rationale for war.

Can you name one instance of American interventionism at any time in our history when this theme wasn't used, except maybe with the Barbary Pirates?

The point being that of course it would be used as a rationale. It's always a rationale, even now in Afghanistan. Is that Wilsonian too?

It depends on whether one believes it or not. Which - again - is my question. Did conservatives actually believe this? And I absolutely believe that those whose politics most resemble progressivism did, because it fits with the worldview; government as affecting a more moral world.

You may find some conservatives like Bill Kristol who touted the "democracy" angle, but generally not as the primary motivation.

You may find some conservatives like Bill Kristol who touted the "democracy" angle, but generally not as the primary motivation.

Some conservatives like Kristol? Are you attempting to suggest here that Kristol is or was some fringe figure, unimportant in the grand scheme of things?


Please. Marcus Epstein gathers a grand collection of quotations, circa 2003 or so, from the stalwart conservative National Review. You - and they - try to minimize all of this now. Which is why it's very important to review what was being said then, things like this:

Skeptics argue that the notion of exporting democracy to Iraq is Wilsonian utopianism. Iraqis, they argue, are too fractured and divided for democracy, and what they really need is a "strong hand" (read: another dictator or at least a strongman) to hold them together.

A recent three-week visit to Iraq and months of working with Iraqi democracy activists, have convinced me that the naysayers are too quick to dismiss the potential for democracy in Iraq. But on one point their arguments have force: We should not take it for granted that democracy will come easily to Iraqis. Thus far, the administration has done way too little to advance the process of creating democratic values and institutions.

Democratizing Iraq: The U.S. needs to do much more to make it happen

by Eleana Gordon
December 1, 2003

The fact that Iraq's people deserve liberation is also important – even if it makes me sound like a Wilsonian liberal, something I have always hated. Still, that is where I stand.

This Is Where I Stand
by Bruce Bartlett
February 18, 2003

Please. Marcus Epstein gathers a grand collection of quotations, circa 2003 or so, from the stalwart conservative National Review. You - and they - try to minimize all of this now. Which is why it's very important to review what was being said then, things like this:

OK Gil. I'll concede the point that you're making, not entirely on merit, but more on effort.

Would you concede that we went in like Teddy Roosevelt and followed through like Woodrow Wilson?
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Absolutely.

Now I'm confused. I thought the war in Iraq was about oil.

I'm having a hard time understanding your reasoning Gil when you keep changing your position to suit your latest article.

BTW, the war in Iraq was about removing Saddam from power and separating him from WMDs. Establishing democracy was never the promary goal and you know it.

Of course this doesn't fit the subject line so........

establishing democracy was the excuse after it was clear that saddam had no weapons of mass destruction.

Well now that that circle jerk is over, was it good for you guys???

You're weird and sometimes you sound like an ostracized schoolgirl.

That whole thread was you two back and forth at each other. Go look up the definition of a circle jerk and you'll see what i was talking about.

But which one of them has to eat the noogie cookie?

Just another example of how populist conservatism embraces the progressive way of thinking, how it sees the answer in governmental intervention, in governmental regulation - in government, period.

Now I'm confused. I thought the war in Iraq was about oil.

I'm having a hard time understanding your reasoning Gil when you keep changing your position to suit your latest article.

BTW, the war in Iraq was about removing Saddam from power and separating him from WMDs. Establishing democracy was never the promary goal and you know it.

Of course this doesn't fit the subject line so........

Yes and once it was established that there weren't any WMDs to find, the administration needed to fall back on their plan B excu....reason.

If the war in Iraq had been truly about removing Saddam from power, then why have we stopped with Iraq? There seem to be any number of African or Middle-Eastern nations that could use our intervention.

Cheney's Haliburton is raking in the $$ (along with his stock in the company)

A complete and utter lie.

A complete and utter lie.

That still would leave the possibility that Cheney could profit from his Halliburton stock options if the company's stock rises in value. However, Cheney and his wife Lynne have assigned any future profits from their stock options in Halliburton and several other companies to charity. And we're not just taking the Cheney's word for this -- we asked for a copy of the legal agreement they signed, which we post here publicly for the first time.

The "Gift Trust Agreement" the Cheney's signed two days before he took office turns over power of attorney to a trust administrator to sell the options at some future time and to give the after-tax profits to three charities. The agreement specifies that 40% will go to the University of Wyoming (Cheney's home state), 40% will go to George Washington University's medical faculty to be used for tax-exempt charitable purposes, and 20% will go to Capital Partners for Education, a charity that provides financial aid for low-income students in Washington, DC to attend private and religious schools.

The agreement states that it is "irrevocable and may not be terminated, waived or amended," so the Cheney's can't take back their options later.

The options owned by the Cheney's have been valued at nearly $8 million, his attorney says. Such valuations are rough estimates only -- the actual value will depend on what happens to stock prices in the future, which of course can't be known beforehand. But it is clear that giving up rights to the future profits constitutes a significant financial sacrifice, and a sizable donation to the chosen charities.

http://www.factcheck.org/kerry_ad_falsely_...alliburton.html

Well heres another one of Cheneys "truths" too. Debunked again

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/03/13/alqaeda.saddam/index.html

I hate to quote myself....

Good research. Of course the ranters will just ignore the facts and come up with some new angle. But then, we don't expect much from them.

And it only took five minutes.

Cheney sold some stock but he still does have quite a bit of money in teh company, it comes out every year at tax time. DO alittle research Stewie Boy before you go defending Darth Vader. And i'm sure the information you just posted came from Fox news, so try another source.

It wouldn't be any fun otherwise now would it. Might as well do it while we can because in another year its going to be you guys whining and complaining about a Democratic President.

where is the missing 9 billion dollars that bush and cheney sent to iraq for bribes? they sent 12 billion in cash and 9 billion has dissapperared.

does the fact that we are not even looking for the money suggest anything to the dunderheads?

and why aren't they whining about their taxdollars like they would if their tax dollars bought a poor kid a hot meal?

the fact that they ain't looking for it speaks volumes. gee think the americans stole it? really, huh, do ya?

and why do conservative not demand accountability.
if a poor kid steals a candy bar they jump up and down kicking up dust demanding he be punished , eyes bulging in self righteous indignation, but steal 9 billion and they turn to pusssycats.
too funny.

I know it brings out a little anger when you guys get trumped, thats ok. Misdirect, bully my avatar, talk about "evil bush".
Get it all out, glad I could help.