“All” means all

March 5th, 2008 6:03 pm · 12 comments

C’mon Joe, don’t call me “Mr. Smart,” that’s my dad. And by the way, I think it’s a good thing that LOL has a righty blogging on the site, we can play some rhetorical raquetball around here. Wear a helmet.

But back to the matter at hand. You say this:

The left doesn’t trust the people enough to make its case for minority rights through the people’s representatives in legislatures and governor’s offices. And, as I have said before, resorting to the courts undermines respect for any new right. And our respect for the principles behind our rights are the strongest bulwark against their violation.

To which I’d say, let’s go back to the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Wikipedia - not always the most accurate reference but it’ll do in this case - tells us that this “landmark legislation… outlawed segretation in the U.S. schools and public places.” My question would be, at what point did segregation in schools and public places become a problem for blacks?

1964?

Do you see what I’m saying here? The legislation isn’t passed until 1964; the issue had persisted for nearly a full century until it was addressed by the federal legislature. And so when you ask, don’t liberals trust elected representatives to protect the rights of minorities, the record, in general, is pretty clear - they may ultimately do so, but it takes quite a few years of inequality before that day ever rolls around.

So my question, in turn, would be: Is that just? Remember, too, that if the Civil Rights Act proved that the legislature responds to the True Will of the People, we might say the exact same thing about the laws that necessitated the Civil Rights Act in the first place.

We might say the exact same thing about the Jim Crow Laws.

Well, these were statutes passed by legislators, right? Blacks were unable to, in your words, “convince a majority of legislators that they were right”; thus the legislation reflected the True Will of the People; the majority of voters at that time wanted, and got, inequality codified in law.

But let’s go a step further. I realize it’s a conservative article of faith that the courts “invent” new rights for minorities, but are those rights, in fact, not inherent in our founding documents themselves? The phrase “All men are created equal”; how in any way is that ambiguous? If all men are created equal then they are necessarily entitled to the same rights, are they not?

The reason the courts tend to decide these cases the way they do is that they take that line literally: All men. They’re not “inventing” new rights; those rights are already there. To say that gays have the right to marriage just as straights have the right to marriage may be a radical departure from tradition - but it is a straight, down-the-line, literalist interpretation of the Constitution.

Conservatives want to prevent that literalist interpretation, which is why they want to draw these lines. We can have this, but they can’t. For traditionally, they haven’t; because we have traditionally discriminated against (insert minority here), but now said minority is saying, hey - all men. That’s pretty much the history of our country; but it frightens us. They’re getting uppity. And so we devise new restrictions - for that is what a legislative prohibition against homosexual marriage, or a constitutional amendment, actually is.

Joe, I go back to my basic argument: The constitution of the United States is about setting forth and defending the rights of the individual against government. How does either Brubaker’s proposal, or yours, accomplish this? Or is it designed, in fact, to do the opposite?

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  12 comments  Tags: Gay marriage · Pennsylvania

There are currently 12 comments on this blog post
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Lernaean
3/5/08
10:52 PM
QUOTE(Lancaster Online @ Mar 5 2008, 06:05 PM) [snapback]363225[/snapback]


Post your thoughts and comments about this blog post.




Excellent article Gil. I'm in full agreement and have been saying the same thing. Gay marriage is ALREADY legal, it just isn't being recognized as such.

PointOfView
3/9/08
1:43 PM
Gil, you are somewhat incorrect in your assertion that it was the legislature who got the civil rights argument wrong and the courts who finally freed the slaves. It was the U.S. Supreme Court in the 1896 case of Plessy v. Ferguson that codified the "separate but equal" philosophy allowing Jim Crow laws to stand even after the legislature passed 3 amendments to the constitution(13,14,15) guaranteeing the newly freed slaves their rights. It took another 60 years to overturn that ruling and guarantee blacks their rights. (Just as an aside, if it wasn't for LBJ's use of the bully pulpit, the Democrat-controlled congress would have never let the civil rights bills to the floor for a vote) So to say that the courts are the guarantors of liberty is a bit gratuitous.



Now, to apply this argument to the same-sex marriage debate....to say that the issue of same-sex marriage and the civil rights struggle of blacks is the same is silly and, I think, offensive. To suggest that not allowing homosexuals to marry is equivalent to Jim Crow laws cheapens the real discrimination blacks suffered under. Marriage is not a "right", Gil. For anyone. Heterosexuals included. The surest proof of that is that you need the government's permission, i.e. a marriage license, to do it. Show me a constitutional right that requires governmental permission to excercise. Marriage is, and always was, a statutory institution (a law) created by legislatures in an attempt to control the behavior of the citizenry, just like all laws. Governments understood that men were less likely to support the children they fathered if they were not legally bound to the mother. Orphanages existed largely to support "bastard" children which placed a burden on the community, not to mention what it did to single-mother households and the likelihood of the children growing up to be productive members of their communities. Government created the law of marriage to try to minimize that problem. Look at the problems our socitey has today with dead-beat dads and poverty and crime due to single-parent homes even with marriage. You can see why governments felt they had to enact legislation. How many children living in poverty, and the problems that they cause, wouldn't exist if the father were living in the same home as the mother? See this article about a new study by Uppsala University's Department of Women's and Children's Health for support of this: http://tinyurl.com/2hsjmv.



Now, I understand why those on the left want the issue of same-sex marriage to be one of "rights" and not laws. If they can make this an issue of "rights" then they only have to convince a few judges that it should exist. If it remains a statutory matter, which it currently and rightly is, then the people have to be the ones to make that decision and the people still agree by overwhelming margins that marriage is an institution between one man and one woman. You can argue that the people are wrong and shouldn't block same-sex marriage and that would be an appropriate avenue for achieving your goals, but don't try to force what would be new laws into existence through the courts. That sword cuts both ways and neither side will be able to control it if it comes to that some day.

bigstew
3/9/08
2:59 PM
QUOTE(PointOfView @ Mar 9 2008, 01:43 PM) [snapback]364343[/snapback]
Gil, you are somewhat incorrect in your assertion that it was the legislature who got the civil rights argument wrong and the courts who finally freed the slaves. It was the U.S. Supreme Court in the 1896 case of Plessy v. Ferguson that codified the "separate but equal" philosophy allowing Jim Crow laws to stand even after the legislature passed 3 amendments to the constitution(13,14,15) guaranteeing the newly freed slaves their rights. It took another 60 years to overturn that ruling and guarantee blacks their rights. (Just as an aside, if it wasn't for LBJ's use of the bully pulpit, the Democrat-controlled congress would have never let the civil rights bills to the floor for a vote) So to say that the courts are the guarantors of liberty is a bit gratuitous.



Now, to apply this argument to the same-sex marriage debate....to say that the issue of same-sex marriage and the civil rights struggle of blacks is the same is silly and, I think, offensive. To suggest that not allowing homosexuals to marry is equivalent to Jim Crow laws cheapens the real discrimination blacks suffered under. Marriage is not a "right", Gil. For anyone. Heterosexuals included. The surest proof of that is that you need the government's permission, i.e. a marriage license, to do it. Show me a constitutional right that requires governmental permission to excercise. Marriage is, and always was, a statutory institution (a law) created by legislatures in an attempt to control the behavior of the citizenry, just like all laws. Governments understood that men were less likely to support the children they fathered if they were not legally bound to the mother. Orphanages existed largely to support "bastard" children which placed a burden on the community, not to mention what it did to single-mother households and the likelihood of the children growing up to be productive members of their communities. Government created the law of marriage to try to minimize that problem. Look at the problems our socitey has today with dead-beat dads and poverty and crime due to single-parent homes even with marriage. You can see why governments felt they had to enact legislation. How many children living in poverty, and the problems that they cause, wouldn't exist if the father were living in the same home as the mother? See this article about a new study by Uppsala University's Department of Women's and Children's Health for support of this: http://tinyurl.com/2hsjmv.



Now, I understand why those on the left want the issue of same-sex marriage to be one of "rights" and not laws. If they can make this an issue of "rights" then they only have to convince a few judges that it should exist. If it remains a statutory matter, which it currently and rightly is, then the people have to be the ones to make that decision and the people still agree by overwhelming margins that marriage is an institution between one man and one woman. You can argue that the people are wrong and shouldn't block same-sex marriage and that would be an appropriate avenue for achieving your goals, but don't try to force what would be new laws into existence through the courts. That sword cuts both ways and neither side will be able to control it if it comes to that some day.

In your face, Gil. biggrin.gif
citydweller
3/9/08
6:05 PM
QUOTE(PointOfView @ Mar 9 2008, 12:43 PM) [snapback]364343[/snapback]

Show me a constitutional right that requires governmental permission to excercise.


Tried buying a handgun lately? dry.gif
PointOfView
3/9/08
7:27 PM
QUOTE(citydweller @ Mar 9 2008, 06:05 PM) [snapback]364395[/snapback]


Tried buying a handgun lately? dry.gif








That's another perfect example of the courts getting it wrong and ignoring what IS an explicit constitutional right and allowing all kinds of abridgements. Not all are bad in their end results, i.e. not allowing convicted felons or mentally unstable person to own guns, but still, an abridgement of the 2nd amendment nonetheless.

Typhon
3/9/08
10:52 PM
The only reasonable solution is that if they are not willing to allow homosexuals the same right to marriage as is exercised by heterosexuals, the only other possibility is to outlaw civil marriage completely. Make it entirely religous (note there are churches who perform gay marriages every day) with no governmental benefits of any kind or recognition by the government. The government can then save a ton of money in the tax breaks married couples get since they cannot discriminate against homosexual by allowing this to continue.

Either give the same rights to every person or don't give those rights to any person. We are not a majority rule country when it comes to civil rights or there would be no civil rights.

tugrad
3/9/08
10:56 PM
QUOTE(Typhon @ Mar 9 2008, 10:52 PM) [snapback]364430[/snapback]

The only reasonable solution is that if they are not willing to allow homosexuals the same right to marriage as is exercised by heterosexuals, the only other possibility is to outlaw civil marriage completely. Make it entirely religous (note there are churches who perform gay marriages every day) with no governmental benefits of any kind or recognition by the government. The government can then save a ton of money in the tax breaks married couples get since they cannot discriminate against homosexual by allowing this to continue.

Either give the same rights to every person or don't give those rights to any person. We are not a majority rule country when it comes to civil rights or there would be no civil rights.

Great post!
dragonrider
3/10/08
6:01 AM
The problem arises becuase we use our tax system to forward social policy, wether to promote marriage, or redistribute wealth or encourage home ownership etc. If we would follow the reccomendations of Huckabee and Ron Paul we would eliminate the income tax and institute a sales tax. Eliminate inheritance taxes as well. A national and state sales tax would limit consumption and encourage savings thus also having a positive effect on the enviroment and our economy. More savings less consumption means lower trade deficit and less borrowing from foreign countries.
PointOfView
3/10/08
9:16 AM
We are not a majority rule country when it comes to civil rights or there would be no civil rights.

[/quote]





The problem with this entire policy debate is that the left wants to invent a 'civil right' to marriage(I challenge you to find marriage in the Constitution or the Bill Of Rights), and the right wants to keep it a civil law issue, which it is, which requires an expression of the will of the people. The left will never let go of the 'civil right' argument because their chances for imposing same-sex marriage through the courts would collapse, and the right will never stop defending marriage as a statutory institution that requires the consent of the people to change.



There is a reason that the left has become so fervent in fighting Bush's court nominees, and it's because they understand that the judicial branch is slowly becoming the most branch of the government with no checks and balances on its power. Congress can make laws, the executive can sign laws, and five Bullwinkle judges - Hey Rocky! Watch us pull a constitutional right out of our a**! - can willy nilly strike down laws and create new ones out of thin air by 'finding' 'hidden' rights that 'were always there, just not discovered' before. WOW! If that's not the definition of absolute power - being able to create a right or statute by 'discovering' a heretofore unknown right to do - whatever - that was magically buried deep down in the Constitution with no chance for the people to vote you from office or overide your actions. That's the day we're heading for - where the judiciary is the omnipotent legislative body and congressional and presidential elections are reduced to attempts to influence the make-up of the court by electing legislators that support your particular judicial point-of view. I'm guessing that that's probably not souding too bad to those of you on the left because you've had a pretty good run advancing your agendas through the courts during the last few decades, but just remember the recent partial-birth abortion ban and the caterwalling you guys all did because the new court suddenly didn't lean your way? Is that what we want? Five of seven unaccountable people deciding such important issues for us? Remember, there's no guarantee for any of us that the court will always be on our side.

dragonrider
3/10/08
12:49 PM
Caterwalling!!!! The right has been caterwalling about abortion since Roe v Wade and caterwalling about gays since the Stonewall rebellion. There isn't a week that goes by that there is not a least one letter to the editor equating abortion with murder. If there is an article about a death in a car accident someone will right in yeah but what about abortions. A child gets shot in school yeah but what about abortion. 55% of all marriages end in divorce yeah but what about gays. sheeesh give it a rest already.



And yeah homosexuality is not genetic, evolution is a left wing conspiracy and King George doesn't need to follow the constitution becuase he is KING.

PointOfView
3/10/08
10:35 PM
[quote name='dragonrider' date='Mar 10 2008, 12:49 PM' post='364586'] Caterwalling!!!! The right has been caterwalling about abortion since Roe v Wade and caterwalling about gays since the Stonewall rebellion. There isn't a week that goes by that there is not a least one letter to the editor equating abortion with murder. If there is an article about a death in a car accident someone will right in yeah but what about abortions. A child gets shot in school yeah but what about abortion. 55% of all marriages end in divorce yeah but what about gays. sheeesh give it a rest already.



You're right. We've been complaining since Roe because it was the first big case in which the Supreme Court pulled a 'right' out of thin air. We prefer that the Constitution only be amended by the process laid out by the founders, not by judicial fiat and 'penumbras from emanations'. If you're not familiar with that phrase it is where the Supreme court found the 'right' to an abortion. I'm not joking, read the Roe majority opinion to see for yourself.



I was simply pointing out the fact that the left had been telling the right to shut up about judicial activism for years until they perceived they were the victims of it, then all heck broke loose. When the rulings were falling their way the court could do no wrong, then whammo, partial-birth ban upheld and it's a judiciary run amok. Your response to my use of 'caterwalling' is a perfect example of what I mean.

Typhon
3/11/08
10:21 PM
QUOTE(PointOfView @ Mar 10 2008, 09:16 AM) [snapback]364509[/snapback]

The problem with this entire policy debate is that the left wants to invent a 'civil right' to marriage(I challenge you to find marriage in the Constitution or the Bill Of Rights), and the right wants to keep it a civil law issue, which it is, which requires an expression of the will of the people. The left will never let go of the 'civil right' argument because their chances for imposing same-sex marriage through the courts would collapse, and the right will never stop defending marriage as a statutory institution that requires the consent of the people to change.





Tell that to the same people who fought hard and won in getting interaccial marriages "legal". It is a civil matter and not allowing it is discrimination, just as it was with interacial marriage. It's the same fight all over again. This time it deals with gender instead of race. It will be won through the courts, not a majority vote ballot. Civil rights to minorities is NOT something that can be voted on with majority rule. It contradicts the fact that it is a civil right for a minority group.

"might" does NOT make "right" (as in correct, which is the total opposite of the use of "right" in the political or religous sense where it is more of a direction, not a state of being.)





QUOTE(PointOfView @ Mar 10 2008, 09:16 AM) [snapback]364509[/snapback]

There is a reason that the left has become so fervent in fighting Bush's court nominees, and it's because they understand that the judicial branch is slowly becoming the most branch of the government with no checks and balances on its power. Congress can make laws, the executive can sign laws, and five Bullwinkle judges - Hey Rocky! Watch us pull a constitutional right out of our a**! - can willy nilly strike down laws and create new ones out of thin air by 'finding' 'hidden' rights that 'were always there, just not discovered' before. WOW! If that's not the definition of absolute power - being able to create a right or statute by 'discovering' a heretofore unknown right to do - whatever - that was magically buried deep down in the Constitution with no chance for the people to vote you from office or overide your actions. That's the day we're heading for - where the judiciary is the omnipotent legislative body and congressional and presidential elections are reduced to attempts to influence the make-up of the court by electing legislators that support your particular judicial point-of view. I'm guessing that that's probably not souding too bad to those of you on the left because you've had a pretty good run advancing your agendas through the courts during the last few decades, but just remember the recent partial-birth abortion ban and the caterwalling you guys all did because the new court suddenly didn't lean your way? Is that what we want? Five of seven unaccountable people deciding such important issues for us? Remember, there's no guarantee for any of us that the court will always be on our side.





That is EXACTLY why there should be an even balance of liberal and conservative judges on the Supreme Court. If it's all of one or all of the other, it gives one group the upper hand in undermining the actual constitution with whatever they want to do in interpreting it. If you stack the deck, you run the risk of "mis-dealing" and screwing yourself over instead of the other guy.

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