Convention center jobs
August 23rd, 2007 9:52 am · 26 comments
Had the thought as I drove by the convention center site on the way in this morning that there’s been relatively little discussion of the merits/drawbacks of the convention center from a labor standpoint.
Which is to say that the convention center will generate a significant number of jobs in center city. What everone disagrees upon is whether this is a net positive or negative. I know some folks (and c’mon Charlie, I’m calling you out) who say that this is ultimately a waste; that while the enterprise might indeed create many full-time jobs, they are not jobs that will pay a “livable” wage; that the people who take those jobs might as well go work at McDonalds because frankly, they’re not likely to make any more money at our “first-class” facility.
And that’s likely true, as far as it goes. But there’s a second aspect to this question.
Frankly, there aren’t a few hundred such jobs available at McDonalds or anywhere else in the city. If you live in the city, perhaps in one of the less-affluent neighborhoods where many of the applicants may come from, you have to travel to find even these jobs. You have to drive out to the suburbs, or maybe you need to take the bus or catch a ride in some other way. Employment opportunities, even at this low rung of the ladder, are simply not available in sufficient supply in the City of Lancaster for those who might be interested in them.
The convention center project would indeed change that. And so we can argue that the jobs created would not be sufficient, would not be the kind of jobs we should be creating for these communities - but who else is creating any significant number of jobs at all for unskilled workers in the city, where transportation would not be an issue because people could ostensibly walk to work?
The answer is, no one. Even at best (”best” being a relative term here) if a Wal-Mart were to be built at the Stockyards site, that would provide a fraction of the jobs provided by the convention center/hotel, would probably pay minimum wage where the downtown project is likely to pay at least slightly more than that, and would be physically located too far away from most city neighborhoods, making transportation an issue.
None of this validates the idea of the project in total, but I throw it out as food for thought. In terms of jobs this isn’t economic development in an ideal sense by any means; but some might say that something is better than nothing.
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Tags: Convention Center · Lancaster
There are currently 26 comments on this blog postView Topic | Comment on this blogArtie See 8/23/07 8:49 PM | QUOTE Which is to say that the convention center will generate a significant number of jobs in center city. What everone disagrees upon is whether this is a net positive or negative. I know some folks (and c’mon Charlie, I’m calling you out) who say that this is ultimately a waste; that while the enterprise might indeed create many full-time jobs, they are not jobs that will pay a “livable” wage; that the people who take those jobs might as well go work at McDonalds because frankly, they’re not likely to make any more money at our “first-class” facility. Gil, I'm going to call YOU out on this one.
At one of the few LCCCA board meetings where Interstate Hotels - the group hand-picked by High to manage BOTH the hotel and the convention center - actually made an appearance, they spoke of "full-time equivalents" of jobs. Under questioning, they admitted that the vast majority of jobs for the hotel, and practically every job for the convention center, will be part-time. The reasoning is, the fluctuating needs of the hotel, and the far more often cold than hot needs of the convention center, mean that full-time employees (other than management) cannot possibly make economic sense.
Various published articles have identified these jobs as being in the $9/hour range. NONE of these part-time jobs will pay benefits like health care or vacation. The BEST that the vast majority of these jobs will be are supplements for a working couple, or second jobs. You will be able to count on your fingers the number of people who will make a living by working there.
This is just one of the many fallacies that have been told and retold about this project. So many people think that just because the bonds are sold and construction is under way, the hard part is over. This is farthest from the truth; the REAL hard part will come when the project cannot possibly begin to meet any of its promises.
Just wait. |
gsmart 8/23/07 9:31 PM | QUOTE(Artie See @ Aug 23 2007, 08:49 PM) [snapback]315751[/snapback] At one of the few LCCCA board meetings where Interstate Hotels - the group hand-picked by High to manage BOTH the hotel and the convention center - actually made an appearance, they spoke of "full-time equivalents" of jobs. Under questioning, they admitted that the vast majority of jobs for the hotel, and practically every job for the convention center, will be part-time. The reasoning is, the fluctuating needs of the hotel, and the far more often cold than hot needs of the convention center, mean that full-time employees (other than management) cannot possibly make economic sense.
Various published articles have identified these jobs as being in the $9/hour range. NONE of these part-time jobs will pay benefits like health care or vacation. The BEST that the vast majority of these jobs will be are supplements for a working couple, or second jobs. You will be able to count on your fingers the number of people who will make a living by working there.
I've no doubt you're absolutely right. But I think the point I was trying to make stands:
Though the vast majority of both full-time and part-time jobs created by this enterprise will not pay enough to permit people to "earn a living" - who or what else in the city is creating any significant number of jobs at all for the unskilled workers that is likely to apply for jobs at the convention center and hotel?
I don't see this happening anywhere else at all in the city; if the Stockyards is redeveloped, yes. And maybe you can make an argument that any other development on the Watt & Shand site would have been likely to have done better.That's speculative - but maybe.
But again: For those who might apply for even these low-wage, low-skill jobs, and I've no doubt there will be plenty of applicants - we might say this isn't sufficient, this isn't enough, but do they share that assessment?
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oh geez 8/23/07 9:35 PM | ya know, we should give the people who can work at a hotel/convention center (what....high school diploma or ged?) $150,000 a year.
puleeeze. if you want a job that pays 6 figures....work for it. if you don't want to work for $9 an hour, then go on welfare and I'll work (while going to school) to help pay your "salary".
People have to take responsibility for themselves. I'm getting tired of people saying "let's pay the supermarket checkout person $25/hr". The price of bread would have to be $10 a loaf.
quit picking my pocket.
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Shawn 8/23/07 10:09 PM | QUOTE(oh geez @ Aug 23 2007, 09:35 PM) [snapback]315760[/snapback] ya know, we should give the people who can work at a hotel/convention center (what....high school diploma or ged?) $150,000 a year.
puleeeze. if you want a job that pays 6 figures....work for it. if you don't want to work for $9 an hour, then go on welfare and I'll work (while going to school) to help pay your "salary".
People have to take responsibility for themselves. I'm getting tired of people saying "let's pay the supermarket checkout person $25/hr". The price of bread would have to be $10 a loaf.
quit picking my pocket.
I think you're missing the point entirely. The argument isn't whether or not convention center workers should make more money. The argument is that the convention center is not going to have as large of an impact on the job market and bring all of these high paying jobs to Lancaster city, as some might try to have us believe. Who are these "people" you are talking about that feel supermarket check out people should make $25/hour? I know a lot of "people", and can't think of even one that would suggest that. You're pocket is safe.
Later...Shawn
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Artie See 8/23/07 10:12 PM | I have no problem with people earning $9/hour, if that is what the work they are doing is worth. I have a BIG problem when almost all of these jobs are part-time, and pay NO benefits.
Gil, you may argue this will do some good for City residents. I argue that this will in fact do more harm than good, because it is the exact opposite of what was promised to the people of Lancaster again and again over the last eight years.
Even City Council vice-president (and community activist) Nelson Polite, who was once one of the biggest supporters of the project, has repeatedly criticized the LCCCA for so many broken promises made to minorities. |
Artie See 8/23/07 10:24 PM | QUOTE(oh geez @ Aug 23 2007, 09:35 PM) [snapback]315760[/snapback] quit picking my pocket. It is the project itself that is picking your pocket. Start with over $135 million of YOUR tax dollars, then add 40 years worth of interest. Then add to that many millions more in guarantees. And don't forget that half of an entire city block of the most expensive real estate in all of Lancaster County will pay no taxes whatsoever, a small part for 20 years, the rest forever.
On top of that, YOUR taxes will be needed to pay for the operational losses of the convention center, which could add up to several million dollars EVERY YEAR.
And what do YOU get in return?
I don't know. I can't find anything worth YOUR tax dollars in all of this. |
RonHarper 8/23/07 10:54 PM | Here's the jobs the convention center is bringing:
[attachmentid=1212]
rh
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charlie_crystle 8/23/07 10:58 PM | Ok, so you called me out, so here I am, Gil. Bastard. I was hoping to get some sleep tonight.
Your argument is based on the assumption that the wellspring of jobs starts with the convention center. But step back in the timeline a bit, and let's ask--what question does the convention center answer? Is it economic development? I don't think so; $135 million of taxpayer investment could be 135 $1 million investments in companies like mine, which are creating jobs at a tremendous rate. Or 1000 $135,000 loans to small business. Or 10 really amazing projects throughout the city. Or 1 really amazing, well-funded job-training center for skilled jobs, tech training, and whatever helps bridge the gap between unskilled workers and available jobs. For every 100,000 invested in my company, we create a long-term, sustainable job, AND we pay the damn money back. Take that to the Authority, light it up and smoke it.
The multiplier effect on convention center jobs is something like 1.01, meaning for every convention center job, .01 is created. For manufacturing, it's more like 4. For Tech, it's 3. So if you want an economic driver, would you build a convention center, or invest in true job producers?
So the center doesn't answer the economic question. It answers the question "What do we do with money allocated by the state that can only be used for convention centers" and "What do we do with the Watt & Shand building". Ready, fire, aim.
So, my liberal, detached, suburban friend, basking out in the glow of Hempfield, my friend who burns polluting gas every day to get downtown when you could easily ride your bike, or better--move to the city and actually take a stake in our future--stick to the winger-bashing and keep out of city economics.
Have a nice day, Smart.
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hahaha 8/24/07 7:22 AM | Hey this is fun! A group of libbies duking it out!! |
gsmart 8/24/07 9:53 AM | QUOTE(charlie_crystle @ Aug 23 2007, 10:58 PM) [snapback]315786[/snapback] Your argument is based on the assumption that the wellspring of jobs starts with the convention center. But step back in the timeline a bit, and let's ask--what question does the convention center answer? Is it economic development? I don't think so; $135 million of taxpayer investment could be 135 $1 million investments in companies like mine, which are creating jobs at a tremendous rate. Or 1000 $135,000 loans to small business. Or 10 really amazing projects throughout the city. Or 1 really amazing, well-funded job-training center for skilled jobs, tech training, and whatever helps bridge the gap between unskilled workers and available jobs. For every 100,000 invested in my company, we create a long-term, sustainable job, AND we pay the damn money back. ...
The multiplier effect on convention center jobs is something like 1.01, meaning for every convention center job, .01 is created. For manufacturing, it's more like 4. For Tech, it's 3. So if you want an economic driver, would you build a convention center, or invest in true job producers?
So the center doesn't answer the economic question. It answers the question "What do we do with money allocated by the state that can only be used for convention centers" and "What do we do with the Watt & Shand building". Ready, fire, aim.
Man! Someone's cranky due to lack of sleep...
Is it economic development?
Yeah, it is. Not an ideal type, not one that's going to pay the type of wages you might pay. But are there 135 companies like yours in Lancaster? I've no doubt we could find 135 people to accept $1 million apiece and start a company, but would their long-term prospects be any better than the most dire of predictions for the downtown project? And then what happens to those jobs?
It's fine to cite the number of jobs manufacturing would create - but where are those jobs in Lancaster city, or any other similar sized city in Pennsylvania, for that matter? And while it's also fine to cite tech jobs, you're talking skilled labor. Where is the pool of labor with these skills in the city of Lancaster? Isn't that a factor in why more tech companies have not come here?
The jobs provided at/by the downtown project would specifically be filled by unskilled workers - many of whom would be minority, many of whom would come from adjacent neighborhoods like the Southeast. These aren't the jobs that will lift people out of poverty, but they will be a concrete something, a starting block. And the entirety of my argument is - what else is there right now?
So the center doesn't answer the economic question. It answers the question "What do we do with money allocated by the state that can only be used for convention centers" and "What do we do with the Watt & Shand building". Ready, fire, aim.
Absolutely true. But money is allocated by the state for convention centers; and something did need to be done with the Watt & Shand building. Maybe money shouldn't be allocated only for convention centers - but that's an issue to be argued at the macro level, isn't it? Likewise, we can say that this specific project isn't or wasn't the best use for the W&S building - but any other proposed use is or was equally as speculative.
My problem with the project is more about the process than the project itself. The way things have been shoved through with little to no accountability - Artie's post on last night's meeting would be a case in point - the lack of "fair and balanced" scrutiny applied to this project by the media - that is what I have disliked about this project.
Whether it is or could be a good idea to build a hotel and convention center in the city, I'm less sold either way on that. There are some good arguments against it; but there are also some arguments for it, and I tend to think that project backers have spent so much time trying to discredit opponents that they've not argued their case as honestly and persuasively as they might otherwise have.
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oh geez 8/24/07 10:21 AM | I still think they should have let the thing fall down and put in some parking. Have you all seen what they charge for parking in the city!! |
Artie See 8/24/07 10:24 AM | QUOTE(oh geez @ Aug 24 2007, 10:21 AM) [snapback]315884[/snapback] I still think they should have let the thing fall down and put in some parking. Have you all seen what they charge for parking in the city!! Rates will be going up very shortly, to help pay for building the new garage in the 100 block of E. King St. that will be needed since the hotel and convention center plan to take over most of the space in the adjacent King St. garage. |
usedmeat 8/25/07 11:54 AM | So we get to pay taxes to support this then pay again ... never mind. Harper's cartoon has it right. |
jpmartin59 8/25/07 12:42 PM | If someone---Gil?---wanted to do a serious study of economic benefits to the working class of the CC, it seems that the Barnstormers might be somewhat analagous. Has anyone done a solid economic benefit study of the ballpark? |
Artie See 8/25/07 1:21 PM | QUOTE(jpmartin59 @ Aug 25 2007, 12:42 PM) [snapback]316075[/snapback] If someone---Gil?---wanted to do a serious study of economic benefits to the working class of the CC, it seems that the Barnstormers might be somewhat analagous. Has anyone done a solid economic benefit study of the ballpark? "Economic benefit"? How about cost to local taxpayers? Why should projects like these be built if they cost local taxpayers more than they return to them?
Yours is a good idea that certainly has merit. Unfortunately, comparing ballparks and convention centers is like comparing apples and oranges: all they have in common is that they are both fruit.
- The ballpark is used regularly between spring and fall, and again in the winter. There are also special events held there. In other words, the utilization of the ballpark is relatively consistent and predictable.
The uses for a 47,500 square foot convention hall with a relatively low ceiling are far more limited. The room is basically useless for anything but conventions. People who organize conventions big enough to use that amount of space almost always move from city to city to city every year. Even if the downtown Lancaster convention facility can draw business away from other existing facilities on a regular basis, the building will be effectively utilized far less often than the baseball stadium.
- The ballpark has a "home team". There is no such thing in conventions.
- The ballpark appeals to local repeat business. Conventions almost always have little or no local appeal, and often are not even open to the general public.
- The ballpark requires no ongoing subsidies from local taxpayers. The tax dollars already invested are at very little risk, because of the structure of the agreement and the nature of the business conducted in the ballpark.
The convention center will require $4 million to $5 million ever year for the next 40 years just to pay for the $64 million Wachovia bond PLUS currently anticipated operational losses. If the convention center cannot meet its overly-optimistic projections ($2 to $3 million a year income indefinitely), local taxpayers will be forced to make up the difference.
In addition, Lancaster City taxpayers are forced to guarantee both the State IFIP bond AND the real estate taxes on the "private" hotel building. If the County declares the "private" hotel building to be taxable - State law dictates that it will be - then Lancaster City taxpayers will be responsible for $300,000 or more a year in School District and County real estate taxes EVERY YEAR. And, if the hotel fails to generate at least $1 million a year in State sales and income taxes every year for at least 20 years, Lancaster City taxpayers will be forced to make up the difference.
In other words, we're screwed. |
harv1 8/25/07 2:24 PM | There are other examples to look at when it comes to ascertaining whether ballparks, major or minor or independent league, bring new and long-lasting businesses to the area around the park.
There have been a number of articles in the azcentral.com website as to why, when the Diamondbacks are at the top of their game and series contenders, attendance has fallen precipitously and why businesses around the ballpark sprout up and then fail. I realize this is a big league venture, but hometown audiences are hometown audiences no matter the size of the town.
From what I can figure, reading about ballparks, is that the first year or so, everyone wants a ticket to say that they've been there. After that, businesses who make up a large part of the season ticket purchasers, the same businesses can't give away the tickets.
As the series grows closer, the attendance will certainly increase for the Dbacks but on a whole, their attendance is way off and businesses are suffering but not down and out because Suns' basketball is going to kick in and that stadium is almost right next door to the Dbacks.
If Lancaster's ballpark remains a multi-use facility, then folks will continue to come to the area. Since prices for beer etc. at ballparks is always overpriced, I'd imagine that bars, restaurants etc. in the area would offer lower priced food to encourage fans to partake before and after events. Alice Cooperstown has been there from the beginning in Phx and it always draws a huge crowd. He also has made his restaurant/bar/nightspot a multi-use kind of 'facility' and has all sorts of events year round. Perhaps the businesses around the ballpark would want to raise their visibility and do things that would draw customers. |
jpmartin59 8/25/07 4:40 PM | QUOTE(harv1 @ Aug 25 2007, 01:24 PM) [snapback]316098[/snapback] There are other examples to look at when it comes to ascertaining whether ballparks, major or minor or independent league, bring new and long-lasting businesses to the area around the park.
There have been a number of articles in the azcentral.com website as to why, when the Diamondbacks are at the top of their game and series contenders, attendance has fallen precipitously and why businesses around the ballpark sprout up and then fail. I realize this is a big league venture, but hometown audiences are hometown audiences no matter the size of the town.
From what I can figure, reading about ballparks, is that the first year or so, everyone wants a ticket to say that they've been there. After that, businesses who make up a large part of the season ticket purchasers, the same businesses can't give away the tickets.
As the series grows closer, the attendance will certainly increase for the Dbacks but on a whole, their attendance is way off and businesses are suffering but not down and out because Suns' basketball is going to kick in and that stadium is almost right next door to the Dbacks.
If Lancaster's ballpark remains a multi-use facility, then folks will continue to come to the area. Since prices for beer etc. at ballparks is always overpriced, I'd imagine that bars, restaurants etc. in the area would offer lower priced food to encourage fans to partake before and after events. Alice Cooperstown has been there from the beginning in Phx and it always draws a huge crowd. He also has made his restaurant/bar/nightspot a multi-use kind of 'facility' and has all sorts of events year round. Perhaps the businesses around the ballpark would want to raise their visibility and do things that would draw customers.
What I was referring to in my post was the wage benefits, not the overall picture. How many employees, total wages paid. average hours worked, etc. |
citydweller 8/25/07 6:22 PM | QUOTE(harv1 @ Aug 25 2007, 02:24 PM) [snapback]316098[/snapback] From what I can figure, reading about ballparks, is that the first year or so, everyone wants a ticket to say that they've been there. After that, businesses who make up a large part of the season ticket purchasers, the same businesses can't give away the tickets.
Interestingly (or frighteningly), we were just last week talking with a friend about wanting to go to more ballgames and she told us we can go for free any time we like.
The company she works for gets blocks of tickets as part of a season ticket or box thing, and they usually throw most of them away because nobody wants them. |
Lancaster 8/25/07 6:47 PM | QUOTE(citydweller @ Aug 25 2007, 06:22 PM) [snapback]316125[/snapback]
Interestingly (or frighteningly), we were just last week talking with a friend about wanting to go to more ballgames and she told us we can go for free any time we like.
The company she works for gets blocks of tickets as part of a season ticket or box thing, and they usually throw most of them away because nobody wants them.
Heck, I'll take some if they're throwing them away!!!
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PedroHead 8/25/07 7:58 PM | I kinda doubt, Charlie, that your parents biked to work from their little piece of suburbia either.
QUOTE(charlie_crystle @ Aug 23 2007, 10:58 PM) [snapback]315786[/snapback] Ok, so you called me out, so here I am, Gil. Bastard. I was hoping to get some sleep tonight.
Your argument is based on the assumption that the wellspring of jobs starts with the convention center. But step back in the timeline a bit, and let's ask--what question does the convention center answer? Is it economic development? I don't think so; $135 million of taxpayer investment could be 135 $1 million investments in companies like mine, which are creating jobs at a tremendous rate. Or 1000 $135,000 loans to small business. Or 10 really amazing projects throughout the city. Or 1 really amazing, well-funded job-training center for skilled jobs, tech training, and whatever helps bridge the gap between unskilled workers and available jobs. For every 100,000 invested in my company, we create a long-term, sustainable job, AND we pay the damn money back. Take that to the Authority, light it up and smoke it.
The multiplier effect on convention center jobs is something like 1.01, meaning for every convention center job, .01 is created. For manufacturing, it's more like 4. For Tech, it's 3. So if you want an economic driver, would you build a convention center, or invest in true job producers?
So the center doesn't answer the economic question. It answers the question "What do we do with money allocated by the state that can only be used for convention centers" and "What do we do with the Watt & Shand building". Ready, fire, aim.
So, my liberal, detached, suburban friend, basking out in the glow of Hempfield, my friend who burns polluting gas every day to get downtown when you could easily ride your bike, or better--move to the city and actually take a stake in our future--stick to the winger-bashing and keep out of city economics.
Have a nice day, Smart.
Agree 100%.
QUOTE(oh geez @ Aug 23 2007, 09:35 PM) [snapback]315760[/snapback] ya know, we should give the people who can work at a hotel/convention center (what....high school diploma or ged?) $150,000 a year.
puleeeze. if you want a job that pays 6 figures....work for it. if you don't want to work for $9 an hour, then go on welfare and I'll work (while going to school) to help pay your "salary".
People have to take responsibility for themselves. I'm getting tired of people saying "let's pay the supermarket checkout person $25/hr". The price of bread would have to be $10 a loaf.
quit picking my pocket.
Jealousy continues to reign.
QUOTE(RonHarper @ Aug 23 2007, 10:54 PM) [snapback]315785[/snapback] Here's the jobs the convention center is bringing:[attachmentid=1212]
rh |
charlie_crystle 8/25/07 9:59 PM | QUOTE I kinda doubt, Charlie, that your parents biked to work from their little piece of suburbia either.
My mom raised the kids and my dad had polio and wore a brace, and could not ride a bike.
Gil--
You bring poverty wage jobs and you perpetuate poverty. Bring decent jobs, job training, better education, and yes, loans for 135 companies (there are definitely 135 appropriate companies in Lancaster), and you'll do better than the convention center. With half the money.
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twinmom 8/25/07 10:13 PM | QUOTE(citydweller @ Aug 25 2007, 06:22 PM) [snapback]316125[/snapback] The company she works for gets blocks of tickets as part of a season ticket or box thing, and they usually throw most of them away because nobody wants them.
We get 1/2 season tickets where I work. Most of them get used by the employees, but for the ones no one wants we offer to clients. We always get thank you notes telling us how much they appreciated it. Perhaps your friend could suggest that at work, it's one extra above and beyond for the client
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Artie See 8/25/07 10:26 PM | QUOTE(charlie_crystle @ Aug 25 2007, 09:59 PM) [snapback]316148[/snapback] You bring poverty wage jobs and you perpetuate poverty. Bring decent jobs, job training, better education, and yes, loans for 135 companies (there are definitely 135 appropriate companies in Lancaster), and you'll do better than the convention center. With half the money. Excellent points.
Under the existing system, the rich get richer, while the poor get poorer. The rich like it that way. |
usedmeat 8/26/07 12:30 PM | Would you like fries with that? |
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