Call attention to it and diversity will continue to mean separateness. What was wrong with the melting pot concept?

I have a serious question for everyone. PLEASE put political preferences aside for the purposes of this particular thread.

The Democratic Lancaster City Council candidates' campaign literature is printed in English on one side, and Spanish on the other. The pictures are identical on both sides, so I assume the Spanish is a direct translation from the English.

Is this an asset, or a liability? Will this gain votes, or drive them away?

Or neither?

Or maybe a little of both? Which will be the greater effect?

I really want to know what people think about this. Again, please disregard that this came from Democrats; maybe the Republicans will do the same thing.

Is this an asset, or a liability? Will this gain votes, or drive them away?

It's a necessity - one that will alienate a good number of the core, traditional Democratic supporters, but makes electoral sense in the long run.

You mentioned the reason I posted this question. It was suggested to me that bilingual campaign literature might drive away far more English-speaking voters than it could attract Spanish-speaking voters.

Any comments?

The current bilingual trend/bend is that americans are learning spanish. It should be the hispanics learninig english. The cards in both are a liability subtly indicating that we have already rolled over and died, so you speak your foreign language and we'll learn it so we can communicate.

WRONG, BAD IDEA!

People come to this country because of what it is. They feel the U.S. has more opportunities than where they come from. Doesn't rejecting mainstream America and holding on tightly to ones own culture defeat the purpose of coming here in the first place?

But EVERYONE who lives in the United States has an ancestry that came from somewhere else (yes, even so-called "native" Americans). Our culture is a melting pot of a myriad of diverse cultures. I myself am part Irish, part English, part Mennonite, and part Pennsylvania German.

Do we attack the Amish because they cling tightly to their own unique culture, and speak their own version of archaic German? Do we condemn the old-order Mennonites for doing the same thing? Has there been any organized opposition to St. Patrick's Day parades? What about Greek families? Or Italians?

What if the English settlers had not accepted the Germans? Or the Irish? Just because it is now the 21st century doesn't mean the process has ended.

welcome to the 21st century reliaty of america.

no one is gonna drag anyone kicking and screaming into some sort of forced language indoctrination.if you don't want to learn spanish then don't but trying to hold back the tide of progress is futile. we live in a "global village".

technology connects us all.

we are earthlings.

think big, think outside the box.

My position is that we have always had other languages spoken for as long as I can remember. Why do we make a big deal out of "bi-lingual" and just name Spanish [when most are actually Latin American Spanish which is not the same as Spanish, the formal language], Many people in the USA have been bi-lingual and multi-lingual for a very long time [most I have known are Latino-Spanish...but I heard the Polish and German in Lancaster and Coatesville, too]. It is a good thing to speak more than one language. I know some kids who speak Hungarian because their Mom speaks it and the children also are fluent in English. They are bi-lingual. Good for them. But, English is the language of USA and everyone should speak English in public places [and everyone who is arguing/yelling in any language should lower their voices]. I realize this is my opinion but this is an opinion-forum listing, I believe.

There is a difference. You are talking about the founding cultures of the U.S.. Our form of government, economy, and society is based on the mix of these cultures.

So...if you were visiting a country in Europe, such as France, with your family, you would only speak the native language to your Family when in public places? If in France, you would only speak to your family members in French when walking around Paris? I certainly wouldn't, I'd speak to them in English.



Later...Shawn

Obviously you haven't been there Shawn or you'd know if you did that you'd get no intelligble response from them if you spoke to them in english.

I have a serious question for everyone. PLEASE put political preferences aside for the purposes of this particular thread.

The Democratic Lancaster City Council candidates' campaign literature is printed in English on one side, and Spanish on the other. The pictures are identical on both sides, so I assume the Spanish is a direct translation from the English.

Is this an asset, or a liability? Will this gain votes, or drive them away?

Or neither?

Or maybe a little of both? Which will be the greater effect?

I really want to know what people think about this. Again, please disregard that this came from Democrats; maybe the Republicans will do the same thing.

I think if you want to live, not visit, this country you should learn the language. That does not mean you should forget or not celebrate your culture. It means that you are the outsider that must assimilate to a degree, it should not be the other way around. Where would it end if it is the other way around?

grieker: I think that what Shawn is saying is that if you, as an american, are in another country, in public, and walking down the street with your wife or your kids, you'd probably be speaking english among your family members.

But, English is the language of USA and everyone should speak English in public places [and everyone who is arguing/yelling in any language should lower their voices].

Maintaining your heritage doesn't have to exclude learning english any more than maintaining my family's heritage would be affected by learning Spanish or any other language.

My position is that we have always had other languages spoken for as long as I can remember. Why do we make a big deal out of "bi-lingual" and just name Spanish [when most are actually Latin American Spanish which is not the same as Spanish, the formal language], Many people in the USA have been bi-lingual and multi-lingual for a very long time [most I have known are Latino-Spanish...but I heard the Polish and German in Lancaster and Coatesville, too]. It is a good thing to speak more than one language. I know some kids who speak Hungarian because their Mom speaks it and the children also are fluent in English. They are bi-lingual. Good for them. But, English is the language of USA and everyone should speak English in public places [and everyone who is arguing/yelling in any language should lower their voices]. I realize this is my opinion but this is an opinion-forum listing, I believe.

And how many generations did it take for your Irish and German ancestors to be integrated into American society? Your German ancestors in particular did not get off the boat as English speakers. Most ethnic groups who arrived in the 1800s stayed in ethnic enclaves because that was all that was available to them. An Irish immigrant family in 1870 living anywhere outside of those enclaves would be as welcome as a Puerto Rican family now moving onto Wheatland Avenue. The US has always made accomodations to recent immigrants that ruffled the feathers of a lot of those already here. An ATM machine with an option for Spanish instructions is no different than a billboard in German from 1890.

English is the language of money and business. It will win every time.

Switzerland

From what people we'd met in Germany and Switzerland explained, english is often taught as a second language. One young man we'd met in Germany who was fluent in english was in an apprenticeship to become an airplane mechanic for Lufthansa, not a college student. Oh, and this was about 20 years ago when I toured Europe while in college.

And how many generations did it take for your Irish and German ancestors to be integrated into American society? Your German ancestors in particular did not get off the boat as English speakers. Most ethnic groups who arrived in the 1800s stayed in ethnic enclaves because that was all that was available to them. An Irish immigrant family in 1870 living anywhere outside of those enclaves would be as welcome as a Puerto Rican family now moving onto Wheatland Avenue. The US has always made accomodations to recent immigrants that ruffled the feathers of a lot of those already here. An ATM machine with an option for Spanish instructions is no different than a billboard in German from 1890.

English is the language of money and business. It will win every time.

And one country that was NOT mentioned was France in that long list someone posted as having friendly people.

Spanish speaking people in Lancaster who refuse to learn English are keeping themselves down, not the other way around.

The US does immigration right.

Shawn...I said nothing about visiting. This thread is about people who live here....not the people who are visiting.

And one country that was NOT mentioned was France in that long list someone posted as having friendly people. I believe they are still not too hospitible to English speaking visitors. HOWEVER....we are mainly talking about citizens...which is a bit different than language expectations of visitors.

Also...my German ancestors have been here as long as my husband's English ancesters. They all came over around the same time as William Penn. I realize some Germans arrived later but we have ancestry traces from the same time [as well as some later]. It took the German families one generation to learn English as family legend goes. My grandparents appear to be the last generation who could speak both English and German and since then we have all spoken English....and if interested... had to learn the German language later by choice. My son chose German as his second language and my daughter choose Spanish. My languages in high school were German and Latin [we still had to have two or three years of Latin if we were going to college at that time].

We do not have English as an official language because then schools would have to pay out even more money for ELL classes. It is another political argument that goes back and forth.

erstwhile. That was your experience. My daughter was pregnant and standing in the train line or bus line. As she got to the pay window, a citizen of France butted into line, pushed her aside and ordered a ticket. I doubt that she was snooty while in France.

Shawn...I said nothing about visiting. This thread is about people who live here....not the people who are visiting.

And one country that was NOT mentioned was France in that long list someone posted as having friendly people. I believe they are still not too hospitible to English speaking visitors. HOWEVER....we are mainly talking about citizens...which is a bit different than language expectations of visitors.


Also...my German ancestors have been here as long as my husband's English ancesters. They all came over around the same time as William Penn. I realize some Germans arrived later but we have ancestry traces from the same time [as well as some later]. It took the German families one generation to learn English as family legend goes. My grandparents appear to be the last generation who could speak both English and German and since then we have all spoken English....and if interested... had to learn the German language later by choice. My son chose German as his second language and my daughter choose Spanish. My languages in high school were German and Latin [we still had to have two or three years of Latin if we were going to college at that time].

We do not have English as an official language because then schools would have to pay out even more money for ELL classes. It is another political argument that goes back and forth.

I believe (and I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong) that the US does not have an offical language.

You mentioned the reason I posted this question. It was suggested to me that bilingual campaign literature might drive away far more English-speaking voters than it could attract Spanish-speaking voters.

You are correct, the US does not have an official language. If English were to become the official language then the government would not have to provide any information in any other language but English. If I am not mistaken, the law may even go as far as to say that all materials printed could ONLY be printed in English...

I recently watched a segment on CNBC about China. One thing that struck me was that 75% of Chinese students are learning English, and that it is widely viewed among young Chinese that the ability to speak English is prestigious.

Although I have to say that I've seen Americans behaving in ways that make me ashamed to be a fellow American more times than I can count. My experience has shown me that there is a lot more truth to the stereotype of the Ugly American abroad than there is to the stereotype of the Snooty Frenchman.

But so long as their money is the same color as everyone else's - why should they?

It probably will drive away more than it attracts.



Right now.



But this is an electoral strategy designed to pay off in the future. As the Latino population here in Lancaster continues to swell - which party is going to represent them? Who is going to tap into the demographic shift?



It strikes me that throughout this thread (as in the country itself), we've sort of got the terminology wrong. We want to argue whether Latinos (or any other minority speaking its own language and clinging to its own culture) should or shouldn't be "required" to learn English.



But so long as their money is the same color as everyone else's - why should they? If the signs are posted in Spanish, if there's someone on staff who's bilingual, there's no need to change. Because to the extent that your business, the money you have to spend as part of that cultural demographic, gives this bank or that home improvement store a competitive edge, there's no need for you to assimilate and learn the cultural ropes. You no longer have to go to them. They will come to you.

I agree with this if you are talking about private industry posting signs and having a bilingual person on staff. I do not agree with the government spending taxpayer money for signs and staff. In this instance I belief [sic] English should be it. If you can't speak English it should be your responsibility to get an interpreter not the government's.

BR, since I am Swiss by heritage I would love to see some pictures and hear some stories someday!

Canton of Bern

erstwhile. That was your experience. My daughter was pregnant and standing in the train line or bus line. As she got to the pay window, a citizen of France butted into line, pushed her aside and ordered a ticket. I doubt that she was snooty while in France.

I probably would have been annoyed, but was with a French friend who explained that it would be very rude for the waiter to come back and interrupt our conversation by asking if we wanted more food or drink. WE needed to call the waiter back over for more drinks.

I probably would have been annoyed, but was with a French friend who explained that it would be very rude for the waiter to come back and interrupt our conversation by asking if we wanted more food or drink.

Post your thoughts and comments about this blog post.

It probably will drive away more than it attracts.

what kind of knucklehead would be driven away from his civic duty to vote simply because one side is in spanish?

You wouldn't believe how some of them act here. I usually avoid Americans when I am out and about because most of them look like slobs and act the same way - loud, swaggering, like they own the place, fumes of attitude coming off them almost as if they enjoy intimidating the quiet, non-confrontational Japanese. It's really embarassing. There are plenty of them though that are respectful enough, but it seems the jerks outnumber the decent people.

Without exception, if I hear a kid screaming in public or raucous behavior, it's always an American.

No one ever identified me as an American

I don't believe that is what he meant. The point is that certain people will vote AGAINST candidates who distribute bilingual campaign literature, not that they will not vote at all.

okay then what kind of knucklehead would vote against a candidate for the sin of having one side of a flyer in spanish?

I agree with that statement and I believe that they have the right not to learn or speak English if they decide not to. However, if their inability to speak the language hinders them from finding employment and paying their own way, and society has to support them with medical assistance, food stamps, etc... then I have a problem with that.

okay then what kind of knucklehead would vote against a candidate for the sin of having one side of a flyer in spanish?

This article in Newsweek currently:

"English will remain the dominant global language for at least the next 50 years because of its pre-eminent position as the language of science, technology, tourism, entertainment and the media."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20216718/site/newsweek/

Graddol, for one, predicts that after peaking at 2 billion in 2010, the number of English students worldwide will begin to drop sharply.

Why?

As the both the U.S. budget deficit and the U.S. international trade deficit spiral out of control, the economic and political influence of the U.S. is bound to diminish.

From 1990 to 2005, trade rose 133 percent. Supply chains are increasingly global. Since 1985, imported components as a share of worldwide manufacturing output have doubled, to almost 30 percent. Cross-border money flows (for stocks, bonds, loans, real estate, entire companies) are huge: $6 trillion in 2005, says the International Monetary Fund. Finally, the boom has reduced acute poverty. The share of the world's population living on $1 a day or less has dropped from 40 percent in 1981 to 18 percent in 2004, the World Bank estimates.

Global capitalism, Frieden writes, survived earlier only until it stopped producing widespread prosperity. No problem, say many economists. The U.S. economy may slow (housing remains a drag), but Europe, Japan and many "emerging market" countries have strengthened. The rest of the world is depending less on U.S. trade deficits, which could subside. Government central banks such as the Federal Reserve will prevent any financial panic. Global Insight, a forecasting firm, predicts world economic growth of 3.6 percent this year and next, down only slightly from 3.9 percent in 2006.

Because I think our tax dollars could be better spent. If someone makes a choice of their own free will to live in this country it is his responsibility to assimilate/get along and live here. Get a job pay taxes etc. The taxpayers did not ask for someone speaking another language to come here. They simple provided the county not everything else. As I said before, where will it end? Do we print in just English and Spanish? Do we print in Cantonese, French, Italian... Who decides? Where do we draw the line? I say we draw the line at English. I'm not saying that anyone moving here should be fluent when they step on American soil, I'm saying they should truly make the effort and the onus is on them, not on our government.

Because I think our tax dollars could be better spent. If someone makes a choice of their own free will to live in this country it is his responsibility to assimilate/get along and live here. Get a job pay taxes etc. The taxpayers did not ask for someone speaking another language to come here. They simple provided the county not everything else. As I said before, where will it end? Do we print in just English and Spanish? Do we print in Cantonese, French, Italian... Who decides? Where do we draw the line? I say we draw the line at English. I'm not saying that anyone moving here should be fluent when they step on American soil, I'm saying they should truly make the effort and the onus is on them, not on our government.

You wouldn't believe how some of them act here. I usually avoid Americans when I am out and about because most of them look like slobs and act the same way - loud, swaggering, like they own the place, fumes of attitude coming off them almost as if they enjoy intimidating the quiet, non-confrontational Japanese. It's really embarassing. There are plenty of them though that are respectful enough, but it seems the jerks outnumber the decent people.

Without exception, if I hear a kid screaming in public or raucous behavior, it's always an American. Funny enough, a lot of Japanese people have mistaken me for French before they hear me speak!

We celebrate Christmas....but because it isn't celebrated by everyone.....we can no longer say Merry Christmas. Now it has to be Season's Greetings.

"In God We Trust" is our national motto.

IMMIGRANTS, NOT AMERICANS, MUST ADAPT.

If you don't agree with this for fear of offending someone....You are part of the problem!

Will we still be the Country of choice and still be America if we continue to make the changes forced on us by the people from other countries that came to live in America because it is the Country of Choice?

We celebrate Christmas....but because it isn't celebrated by everyone.....we can no longer say Merry Christmas. Now it has to be Season's Greetings. It's not Christmas vacation, it's Winter Break. We've gone so far and bent over backwards to not offend anyone, that we are now being offended.

This is an editorial written by an American citizen, published in a Florida Newspaper.
IMMIGRANTS, NOT AMERICANS, MUST ADAPT.
I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11, we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Americans. However... the dust from the attacks had
barely settled when the "politically correct!" crowd began complaining about the possibility that our patriotism was offending others.

I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against anyone who is seeking a better life by coming to America.
Our population is almost entirely made up of descendants of immigrants. However, there are a few things that those who have recently come to our country, and apparently some born here, need to understand.

This idea of America being a multicultural community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity.
As Americans we have our own culture, our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle. This culture has been developed over centuries of struggles, trials, and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom.

We speak ENGLISH, not Spanish, Portuguese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, learn the language!

"In God We Trust" is our national motto. This is not some Christian, right wing, political slogan.. We adopted this motto because Christian men and women....on Christian principles....founded this nation... and this is clearly documented.
It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home...because God is part of our culture.

If Stars and Stripes offend you, or you don't like Uncle Sam, then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet. We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you did things where you came from. This is OUR COUNTRY, our land, and our lifestyle. Our First Amendment gives every citizen the right to express his opinion and we will allow you every opportunity to do so! But once you are done complaining, whining and griping about our flag... our pledge... our national motto...or our way of life....I highly encourage you to take advantage of one other Great American Freedom......THE RIGHT TO LEAVE.

It is Time for Americans to Speak up
If you don't agree --- You are in the WRONG Country

IMMIGRANTS, NOT AMERICANS, MUST ADAPT.

If you don't agree with this for fear of offending someone....You are part of the problem!

Will we still be the Country of choice and still be America if we continue to make the changes forced on us by the people from other countries that came to live in America because it is the Country of Choice?

We celebrate Christmas....but because it isn't celebrated by everyone.....we can no longer say Merry Christmas. Now it has to be Season's Greetings. It's not Christmas vacation, it's Winter Break. We've gone so far and bent over backwards to not offend anyone, that we are now being offended.

This is an editorial written by an American citizen, published in a Florida Newspaper.
IMMIGRANTS, NOT AMERICANS, MUST ADAPT.
I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11, we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Americans. However... the dust from the attacks had
barely settled when the "politically correct!" crowd began complaining about the possibility that our patriotism was offending others.

I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against anyone who is seeking a better life by coming to America.
Our population is almost entirely made up of descendants of immigrants. However, there are a few things that those who have recently come to our country, and apparently some born here, need to understand.

This idea of America being a multicultural community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity.
As Americans we have our own culture, our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle. This culture has been developed over centuries of struggles, trials, and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom.

We speak ENGLISH, not Spanish, Portuguese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, learn the language!

"In God We Trust" is our national motto. This is not some Christian, right wing, political slogan.. We adopted this motto because Christian men and women....on Christian principles....founded this nation... and this is clearly documented.
It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home...because God is part of our culture.

If Stars and Stripes offend you, or you don't like Uncle Sam, then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet. We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you did things where you came from. This is OUR COUNTRY, our land, and our lifestyle. Our First Amendment gives every citizen the right to express his opinion and we will allow you every opportunity to do so! But once you are done complaining, whining and griping about our flag... our pledge... our national motto...or our way of life....I highly encourage you to take advantage of one other Great American Freedom......THE RIGHT TO LEAVE.

It is Time for Americans to Speak up
If you don't agree --- You are in the WRONG Country

You're no shrinking violet Melody. Why not write a letter to the base commander and tell him that something should be done. It's beyond my comprehension that the climate that exist now at some locations appears to worse than it was 20 years ago.

Sometimes we're a plague.