The end of the war

August 9th, 2007 5:10 pm · 124 comments

You may have noticed that the number of postings here about the war in Iraq has declined. I’ve noticed it, in that I simply haven’t much felt like writing about it. There are several reasons for that.

In one respect it’s because the jury’s still out on the “surge,” though as I have written, I think we all have a pretty good idea of what Gen. Petraeus will say come September. He will declare that we are making progress and must keep up the pressure - for how long is anyone’s guess. But surely we’ll keep right on surging into 2008. And possibly beyond.

There is indeed some evidence to suggest the surge has had an effect; American military fatalities were down in July, though they have soared in these first few days of August. And, of course, the Iraqi parliament indeed went on its August vacation, while nearly all Sunni representatives in the Iraqi government have quit. Would that there was some sort of “surge” that could change the political equation in Iraq, but there isn’t. What we see is what we’re going to continue to get.

And that goes domestically as well. Of the 2008 contenders - those who have a realistic shot, anyway - who among them represents an actual break with the past practices that got us into the Iraqi mess in the first place? Barack Obama is virtually the only one - and he’s being pilloried as insufficiently “serious” on matters of national security by the likes of Hillary. Hillary will be the nominee, and may well be the next president. And I just don’t see that this represents the true shifting of gears, the strategic reiorientation, that I believe this country needs.

That means there are going to be more Iraqs. And I suppose I’m simply getting used to the idea.

Not warming to it, mind you. But frankly, if this is what the American people want - then this is what the American people shall have. The likes of Ron Paul represents little more than shouting in the darkness. Yes, millions of people might agree with his thoughts on the war. But other millions back knee-jerk militarism, believe wholeheartedly in a type of American exceptionalism that justifies everything, think we can somehow subdue a tactic, terrorism, used and destined to continue to be used by the weak against the strong.

We’re on this ride, and for a long time I thought maybe we could get off. But I’m beginning to understand that we can’t get off - and that we wouldn’t even if we could. We all have our roles to play, and our role, as a nation, is to pretend that oil has nothing to do with it, to believe that there is a military solution to everything, to be frightened enough to permit government heretofore unparalleled power to pry into our private lives. To act, and be, the empire that we’ve long claimed not to be.

But empires fall. And I’m convinced that this dedication to our role will absolutely be a factor, and perhaps the most important factor, in our own decline. I was thinking this morning that I’d never linked here what I consider to be the most important essay I’ve ever read - which, as noted in the print edition, actually ran in Pat Buchanan’s American Conservative Magazine - in which Michael Vlahos writes:

Thus the 9/11 attacks were a frontal assault on the American narrative. They were instinctively compared to Pearl Harbor, but we were not the same innocent nation in 2001 that we were in 1941, seemingly minding our own business. In the intervening 60 years, we had built a position that in its narrative splendor was a true world empire. Some even announced that we had triumphantly ended history on our terms. Henceforth only American values reigned.

The attacks were not simply a violation of the national person—as in 1941—but an affront to all that was right and true. Yet its emotional symbolism had a darker side too—the suggestion, felt but unvoiced by Americans, that the attacks were the first black sign of The Fall of the City, the beginning of the end of the American sacred narrative.

Simple retribution would not be enough. We had to utterly destroy the prophecy couched in 9/11 and reassert American predestination. …

America is now tasked with bringing the dark side to submission. But of course we have neither the means nor the will to do so. The Great Muslim War will keep us locked in, so the more we thrash within our story, the more we will undo ourselves. Our narrative has blocked every exit. Escape officially equals retreat, and retreat equals utter defeat. We must never quit the fight—meaning we remain willing participants to our final fall.

That is our role, and that is how the drama ends. And so sometimes it seems pointless to argue against an ending that I believe has already been scripted. I’m sure I will still do so on occasion. But I’ve lost enthusiasm for thinking that we can get anything more than the most meager of rewrites.

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  124 comments  Tags: War on terror · War in Iraq

There are currently 124 comments on this blog post
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hahaha
8/9/07
8:02 PM
What does House Majority Whip James Clyburn (D-S.C.) think about the Democrats if the reports from Iraq turn positive?

"....it would be a problem for us"
bigstew
8/9/07
10:47 PM
QUOTE(hahaha @ Aug 9 2007, 08:02 PM) [snapback]311955[/snapback]
What does House Majority Whip James Clyburn (D-S.C.) think about the Democrats if the reports from Iraq turn positive?

"....it would be a problem for us"




I started threads before on this very topic. A win in iraq is a disaster for the dems. That is why they are so belligerent about no possibility of a win. Hillary must not totally believe it, because if she did, she would have apologized for her vote a long time ago. She will say anything to any crowd to get votes.



QUOTE
Thus the 9/11 attacks were a frontal assault on the American narrative. They were instinctively compared to Pearl Harbor, but we were not the same innocent nation in 2001 that we were in 1941, seemingly minding our own business.


How were we innocent then? We were sending arms and supplies to the allies long before we entered the war in europe, and we cut japan's oil supply off to slow their expansion in the east. We didn't fire the first shot, but we definately took sides and drew lines.
I don't see the validity of this statement.
usedmeat
8/11/07
10:19 AM
You realize that to keep going we will have to reinstate the draft?
Artie See
8/11/07
11:02 AM
QUOTE(bigstew @ Aug 9 2007, 10:47 PM) [snapback]311981[/snapback]
A win in iraq is a disaster for the dems.
You keep saying that, yet you know it's not true. A win in Iraq would mean most U.S. troops could come home almost immediately. That would please ALL Americans, especially Democrats.

So why doesn't GW Bush just go and WIN the war, so our people can come home?
justplainjoe
8/11/07
3:23 PM
QUOTE(usedmeat @ Aug 11 2007, 10:19 AM) [snapback]312467[/snapback]
You realize that to keep going we will have to reinstate the draft?


well i hope that they draft chickenhawks with fat arses who claim they can't fight and make them do desk duty or guard duty or kp duty.

why let the warmongers out on a silly technicality such as lordosis? if they can work for wages they can work for their war effort. if they're too chicken to fight make 'em work somewhere else, after all they are super patriots right?

now no excuses from you chickens, right?

roflamao



BAG-17
8/11/07
5:06 PM
QUOTE(bigstew @ Aug 9 2007, 10:47 PM) [snapback]311981[/snapback]

Hillary must not totally believe it, because if she did, she would have apologized for her vote a long time ago. She will say anything to any crowd to get votes.



Hey watch what you say about my presidential pic, I truly think she make a great president. For one thing she'll have time to do the job, because the press will be so busy following her husband around they'll give her plenty of time to devote to the Office. biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif

For some reason this song came to mind while reading Gil's comments, I realize it was written w/ the struggle in Ireland in mind but I think it still fits.

Another head hangs lowly,
Child is slowly taken.
And the violence caused such silence,
Who are we mistaken?

But you see, it's not me, it's not my family.
In your head, in your head they are fighting,
With their tanks and their bombs,
And their bombs and their guns.
In your head, in your head, they are crying
...

In your head, in your head,
Zombie, zombie, zombie,
Hey, hey, hey. What's in your head,
In your head,
Zombie, zombie, zombie?
Hey, hey, hey, hey, oh, dou, dou, dou, dou, dou...

Another mother's breakin',
Heart is taking over.
When the vi'lence causes silence,
We must be mistaken.


It's the same old theme since nineteen-sixteen.
In your head, in your head they're still fighting,
With their tanks and their bombs,
And their bombs and their guns.
In your head, in your head, they are dying...

In your head, in your head,
Zombie, zombie, zombie,
Hey, hey, hey. What's in your head,
In your head,
Zombie, zombie, zombie?
Hey, hey, hey, hey, oh, oh, oh,
Oh, oh, oh, oh, hey, oh, ya, ya-a...

...Dolores O'Roirdan
justplainjoe
8/11/07
6:26 PM
QUOTE(BAG-17 @ Aug 11 2007, 05:06 PM) [snapback]312518[/snapback]


Hey watch what you say about my presidential pic, I truly think she make a great president. For one thing she'll have time to do the job, because the press will be so busy following her husband around they'll give her plenty of time to devote to the Office. biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif

For some reason this song came to mind while reading Gil's comments, I realize it was written w/ the struggle in Ireland in mind but I think it still fits.

Another head hangs lowly,
Child is slowly taken.
And the violence caused such silence,
Who are we mistaken?

But you see, it's not me, it's not my family.
In your head, in your head they are fighting,
With their tanks and their bombs,
And their bombs and their guns.
In your head, in your head, they are crying
...

In your head, in your head,
Zombie, zombie, zombie,
Hey, hey, hey. What's in your head,
In your head,
Zombie, zombie, zombie?
Hey, hey, hey, hey, oh, dou, dou, dou, dou, dou...

Another mother's breakin',
Heart is taking over.
When the vi'lence causes silence,
We must be mistaken.


It's the same old theme since nineteen-sixteen.
In your head, in your head they're still fighting,
With their tanks and their bombs,
And their bombs and their guns.
In your head, in your head, they are dying...

In your head, in your head,
Zombie, zombie, zombie,
Hey, hey, hey. What's in your head,
In your head,
Zombie, zombie, zombie?
Hey, hey, hey, hey, oh, oh, oh,
Oh, oh, oh, oh, hey, oh, ya, ya-a...

...Dolores O'Roirdan


I hear you on the radio
You permeate my screen, its' unkind but
If I met you in a scissor fight
I'd cut off both your wings on principle alone
On principle alone

Hey megalomaniac
You're no Jesus
Yeah, you're no !profanity!ing Elvis
Wash your hands clean of yourself baby and
Step down
Step down
Step down

If I were your appendages
I'd hold open your eyes
So you would see
That all of us are heaven sent
There was never meant to be only one
To be the only one

Hey megalomaniac
You're no Jesus
Yeah, you're no !profanity!ing Elvis
Wash your hands clean of yourself baby and
Step down
Step down
Step down

Yeah
You're no Jesus
You're no Elvis
You're no Jesus
You're no Jesus
You're no Elvis
They're no answer



Hey megalomaniac
You're no Jesus
Yeah, you're no !profanity!ing Elvis
Wash your hands clean of yourself baby and
Step down



usedmeat
8/11/07
7:33 PM
I cant believe the news today
Oh, I cant close my eyes and make it go away
How long...
How long must we sing this song?
How long? how long...

cause tonight...we can be as one
Tonight...

Broken bottles under childrens feet
Bodies strewn across the dead end street
But I wont heed the battle call
It puts my back up
Puts my back up against the wall

Sunday, bloody sunday
Sunday, bloody sunday
Sunday, bloody sunday (sunday bloody sunday...)
(allright lets go!)

And the battles just begun
Theres many lost, but tell me who has won
The trench is dug within our hearts
And mothers, children, brothers, sisters torn apart

Sunday, bloody sunday
Sunday, bloody sunday

How long...
How long must we sing this song?
How long? how long...

cause tonight...we can be as one
Tonight...
Tonight...

Sunday, bloody sunday (tonight)
Tonight
Sunday, bloody sunday (tonight)
(come get some!)

Wipe the tears from your eyes
Wipe your tears away
Wipe your tears away
I wipe your tears away
(sunday, bloody sunday)
I wipe your blood shot eyes
(sunday, bloody sunday)

Sunday, bloody sunday (sunday, bloody sunday)
Sunday, bloody sunday (sunday, bloody sunday)
(here I come!)

And its true we are immune
When fact is fiction and tv reality
And today the millions cry
We eat and drink while tomorrow they die

The real battle yet begun (sunday, bloody sunday)
To claim the victory jesus won (sunday, bloody sunday)



D. H. Evans





War, republicans are for it as long as they don't have to participate.


Artie See
8/11/07
8:15 PM
QUOTE(usedmeat @ Aug 11 2007, 07:33 PM) [snapback]312535[/snapback]
I cant believe the news today
Oh, I cant close my eyes and make it go away
How long...
How long must we sing this song?
How long? how long...
You too? biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif

All too true. And not just about war.

sad.gif lol_ohno.gif mad.gif lol_sad.gif lol_crying.gif
Gecko
8/11/07
10:06 PM
Artie, bring troops home, the4n what.

If not war, then what?

If Peace, how?

If consequences of war? What are the consequences w/ out war. Or the consequences of failure? Of all Americas wars over 231 years, 1.3 million dead, while there has been 1.3 million babies killed over in only ONE year!

Terrorists are not rational....Negotiation w/ terrorists is like arguing w/ terrorists. Keeping that in mind, Negotiations w/ terrorists is a tried and true failure.

US troops KIA is 1.9 a day. Aborted babies KIA is 3,500/ day.

Coalition on board at start of war, 24++ Hardly the go it alone mantra. Yes, Pope Paul was also wrong. [See the CENTCOM website].

War? How about 50 Million abortions a year world wide. Not a war you say?

Many of our Dem/liberal friends are blatantly anti-American and want us to lose!

Dems think war can be scripted. Entering a wars strategy is to win. Exit strategy is to win. During is whatever works. See Patton, et al. You don't need Sun Tzu to figure that one out.

Dems are legislating defeat. Are grasping defeat from the jaws of victory.


"It is not possible to negotiate Peace w/ an enemy that only wants war and sees that you only want Peace".




usedmeat
8/11/07
11:04 PM
QUOTE
Many of our Dem/liberal friends are blatantly anti-American and want us to lose!
One, I am not your friend. Two just how many in this administration have servd their country? Why not google chickenhawks or yellow elephant. If this war is so important why isn't there a draft or a mass enlistment of republican cheerleaders?
QUOTE
Dems are legislating defeat. Are grasping defeat from the jaws of victory
What victory? When?



http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story...2147052,00.html



QUOTE


The anecdotal evidence on the ground confirms what others - prominent among them General Colin Powell, the former US Secretary of State - have been insisting for months now: that the US army is 'about broken'. Only a third of the regular army's brigades now qualify as combat-ready. Officers educated at the elite West Point academy are leaving at a rate not seen in 30 years, with the consequence that the US army has a shortfall of 3,000 commissioned officers - and the problem is expected to worsen.

And it is not only the soldiers that are worn out. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have led to the destruction, or wearing out, of 40 per cent of the US army's equipment, totalling at a recent count $212bn (£105bn).

But it is in the soldiers themselves - and in the ordinary stories they tell - that the exhaustion of the US military is most obvious, coming amid warnings that soldiers serving multiple Iraq deployments, now amounting to several years, are 50 per cent more likely than those with one tour to suffer from acute combat stress. The army's exhaustion is reflected in problems such as the rate of desertion and unauthorised absences - a problem, it was revealed earlier this year, that had increased threefold on the period before the war in Afghanistan and had resulted in thousands of negative discharges.



Artie See
8/12/07
12:30 PM
QUOTE(Gecko @ Aug 11 2007, 10:06 PM) [snapback]312558[/snapback]
Artie, bring troops home, then what.

If not war, then what?
Are you defending war for its own sake?

QUOTE(Gecko @ Aug 11 2007, 10:06 PM) [snapback]312558[/snapback]
Terrorists are not rational....Negotiation w/ terrorists is like arguing w/ terrorists. Keeping that in mind, Negotiations w/ terrorists is a tried and true failure.
True. But Saddam Hussein would not tolerate terrorist organizations in Iraq, he saw them as a threat to his own sovereignty. On the other hand, the U.S. occupation in Iraq has generated a degree of hatred against us that had never existed before, inspiring thousands to become terrorists who would not have otherwise.

QUOTE(Gecko @ Aug 11 2007, 10:06 PM) [snapback]312558[/snapback]
War? How about 50 Million abortions a year world wide. Not a war you say?
I can't argue that point, except to say that it cannot be won by military force.

QUOTE(Gecko @ Aug 11 2007, 10:06 PM) [snapback]312558[/snapback]
Many of our Dem/liberal friends are blatantly anti-American and want us to lose!

Dems think war can be scripted. Entering a wars strategy is to win. Exit strategy is to win. During is whatever works. See Patton, et al. You don't need Sun Tzu to figure that one out.

Dems are legislating defeat. Are grasping defeat from the jaws of victory.
That is an outright lie, and is nothing more than fear-mongering at its worst.
usedmeat
8/12/07
2:03 PM
QUOTE
That is an outright lie, and is nothing more than fear-mongering at its worst.
It's the republican's stock and trade.
usedmeat
8/12/07
3:32 PM
There is a news article up on the home page abut the National Guard lowering it's recruitment standards again. Tell us how the drain Bush's war is putting on th military won't mean a withdrawal.
bigstew
8/12/07
6:26 PM
QUOTE(Artie See @ Aug 11 2007, 11:02 AM) [snapback]312472[/snapback]
You keep saying that, yet you know it's not true. A win in Iraq would mean most U.S. troops could come home almost immediately. That would please ALL Americans, especially Democrats.

So why doesn't GW Bush just go and WIN the war, so our people can come home?




It is true, in the realm of reelection. And believe me artie, I am not happy about it.

Artie See
8/12/07
9:42 PM
QUOTE(bigstew @ Aug 12 2007, 06:26 PM) [snapback]312750[/snapback]
It is true, in the realm of reelection. And believe me artie, I am not happy about it.
Unfortunately, there are Democrats for whom it may well very be true. And I'm not happy about it, either.

But remember, it is not true about MOST of us.

I certainly hope you are no more like GW Bush than I am like (name your favorite Democrat target). Certain prominent Democratic don't represent the majority of Democrats, any more than certain prominent Republicans represent the majority of Republicans.

This is why I generally avoid the Republican vs. Democrat argument. Any blanket statement about tens of millions of people almost always ends up being wrong about the vast majority of them.
lee41
8/12/07
10:14 PM
QUOTE(usedmeat @ Aug 11 2007, 10:19 AM) [snapback]312467[/snapback]
You realize that to keep going we will have to reinstate the draft?


I believe the new war czar recently said the draft should be considered.
cyberscribbler
8/13/07
12:09 PM
QUOTE(Gecko @ Aug 11 2007, 10:06 PM) [snapback]312558[/snapback]
Terrorists are not rational....Negotiation w/ terrorists is like arguing w/ terrorists. Keeping that in mind, Negotiations w/ terrorists is a tried and true failure.
Al Qaeda is responsible for only 5% of the attacks and comprise between 4% - 6% of the opposition.

Once a Iraqi gov't & army can maintain an assemblance of order in Iraq - we'll still be there as we still are in Korea, Germany, Japan, etc.

The end of war won't mean an end to our involvement in Iraq, until the oil runs out.

90% of the oil left in the world resides in the middle east. It's a fight to the finish.



usedmeat
8/13/07
2:30 PM
Ever notice how every new told republican lie is eventually debunked?



A case in point.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/8/13/125633/958



QUOTE


T]he far greater deceit involves the trip itself and the way it was represented -- both by Pollack/O'Hanlon as well as the excited media figures who touted its significance and meaning. From beginning to end, this trip was planned, shaped and controlled by the U.S. military -- a fact inexcusably concealed in both the Op-Ed itself and virtually every interview the two of them gave. With very few exceptions, what they saw was choreographed by the U.S. military and carefully selected for them.... Not only was this obviously critical fact --that "all this information ultimately is coming from the U.S. military" -- excluded from their Op-Ed, but, with one exception, neither they nor their numerous media interviewers saw fit to mention it....

But this only begins to convey how ludicrous and misleading a spectacle this whole event was. O'Hanlon and Pollack were in Iraq for a total of 7 1/2 days. They spent every night ensconced in the Green Zone in Baghdad. They did not spend a single night in any other city. As O'Hanlon admitted, they spent no more than "between 2-4 hours" in every place they visited outside Baghdad, and much of that was taken up meeting U.S. military commanders, not inspecting the proverbial "conditions on the ground."

Yet in their Op-Ed, they purported to describe the encouraging conditions in four places other than Baghdad -- Ramadi, Tal Afar, Mosul, and the Anbar Province -- as though they could possibly have made any meaningful observations during their visits which were all roughly the duration of the average airport layover. Worse, both O'Hanlon and Pollack -- and especially Pollack -- in their interviews repeatedly described their optimistic observations about Iraqi cities in such a way as to create the misleading impression that these were based upon their first-hand observations....

O'Hanlon and Pollack appeared on at least 10 major television news programs. Other than Blitzer, no interviewer even raised the issue of whether they were overly-dependent on the U.S. military for their information, none probed the basis for their claims, and Pollack and O'Hanlon never once even alluded to the questionable nature of what they had been shown (even though O'Hanlon "apologized" for not disclosing it in the Op-Ed when I pressed him on it). And from what I reviewed, not a single one ever identified either of them as having been pro-war and pro-Surge, and they themselves never bothered to mention that as they were hailed as hard-nosed "critics" of the administration -- thus helpfully preserving the dramatic television storyline that "harsh critic of the Bush administration" went to Iraq and found Great Progress.



bigstew
8/13/07
11:09 PM
Usedmeat and dailykooks. Hardly an impeachable source.
justplainjoe
8/14/07
5:37 AM
QUOTE(bigstew @ Aug 13 2007, 11:09 PM) [snapback]313031[/snapback]
Usedmeat and dailykooks. Hardly an impeachable source.


as opposed to your cut and paste propaganda from fellow chicken hawks.LOL





Artie See
8/14/07
7:32 AM
The extremists of the Republican party have no choice but to attack Democrats. Their elected officials have mismanaged this country so badly over the last decade or so that the only way they can possibly look acceptable is by trying to make the Democrats look far worse.

May God have mercy on the vast majority of Republicans who are moderates.
bigstew
8/14/07
5:34 PM
QUOTE(Artie See @ Aug 14 2007, 07:32 AM) [snapback]313074[/snapback]
The extremists of the Republican party have no choice but to attack Democrats. Their elected officials have mismanaged this country so badly over the last decade or so that the only way they can possibly look acceptable is by trying to make the Democrats look far worse.

May God have mercy on the vast majority of Republicans who are moderates.




The extremists of the democratic party have no choice but to attack republicans.

Artie See
8/14/07
6:04 PM
QUOTE(bigstew @ Aug 14 2007, 05:34 PM) [snapback]313250[/snapback]
The extremists of the democratic party have no choice but to attack republicans.
Basically because the extremists in the Republican party refuse to talk about ISSUES. Instead, they are obsessed with attacking anyone who does not buy into their elitist philosophies.

If the extremist Republicans had issues that were defensible, they would willingly discuss these issues with anyone. Instead, these extremist Republicans whine and scream that anyone who doesn't believe in their programs must be either a traitor or an extremist.

When GW Bush and his followers are willing to reasonably discuss the issues, I will willingly rescind these statements. But for well over the past six years, GW Bush and his followers have pursued an extremely narrow-minded and selfish set of philosophies. Carl Rove's strategy has been to create division instead of build consensus. To quote an article from this morning's Intelligencer Journal:
QUOTE(Intelligencer Journal @ August 14, 2007)
That was never Rove’s style. His combative nature no doubt influenced what may have been Bush’s biggest mistake — using 9/11 to divide Democrats and Republicans rather than uniting the public behind a grand cause or shared sacrifice.
Threads like this one are a direct result of this failed GW Bush/Rove strategy.
justplainjoe
8/14/07
6:16 PM
what's the difference between the iraq war and the vietnam war???

jr and cheney figured out how to get out of the vietnam war!!!!

bwahahahhahhahahahhahahhahaha

bwahahhahhahahhahahahhahahahhah

usedmeat
8/14/07
11:54 PM
Old blood and frog gutz Bush and bumticker Cheney biggrin.gif
Pericles
8/15/07
11:51 AM
QUOTE(usedmeat @ Aug 11 2007, 11:04 PM) [snapback]312571[/snapback]
One, I am not your friend. Two just how many in this administration have servd their country? Why not google chickenhawks or yellow elephant. If this war is so important why isn't there a draft or a mass enlistment of republican cheerleaders?


And for the ten thousandth time, why didn't you enlist after 9/11? You supported the invasion of Afghanistan, didn't you? You wanted to get bin Laden, didn't you?

Why don't you stop clucking up about chicken hawks, since you are guilty of the same offense?

American men died in Afghanistan defending you. What did you do, watch it on TV and then get in your warm bed?

No credibility.




QUOTE(usedmeat @ Aug 11 2007, 07:33 PM) [snapback]312535[/snapback]

War, republicans are for it as long as they don't have to participate.




The same applies to you. You wanted us to get bin Laden, but you didn't have the courage or the integrity to sign up. Other men died in your place.


QUOTE(Artie See @ Aug 14 2007, 07:32 AM) [snapback]313074[/snapback]


May God have mercy on the vast majority of Republicans who are moderates.


And may God also have mercy on Democrats - moderate, extreme and all others - for their unwavering support of the murder of millions of unborn babies. It's in your party platform!

Artie See
8/15/07
12:38 PM
QUOTE(Pericles @ Aug 15 2007, 11:51 AM) [snapback]313478[/snapback]
And may God also have mercy on Democrats - moderate, extreme and all others - for their unwavering support of the murder of millions of unborn babies. It's in your party platform!
The Democratic national party platform doesn't represent all Democrats any more than GW Bush represents all Republicans. There are certainly Democrats who support abortion, but there are tens of millions of us who do not.

All of us tend to identify with either Democrat or Republican because there are only two MAJOR parties. Some people have chosen to identify with other parties, but the sad truth is their chances of electing a candidate are not good. Republicans in general tend to favor big business and the well-off, while Democrats in general tend to favor working people and the poor; having been both poor and working-class means I identify myself as a Democrat. Believe me, if there were a MODERATE party, I would identify myself with it instead - as would most people.

Let's be honest: abortion will not be decided by political means. The U.S. Supreme Court is the final arbitrator in that eternal controversy. Yes, a constitutional amendment could settle the issue once and for all, but we all know the process is so convoluted that the odds of that passing are nil.

My point is, it is futile to use abortion as a defining issue, NO candidate for ANY office below POTUS can ultimately have even the slightest influence on it. Even the president's influence is limited to appointing Supreme Court justices.

There are other issues that are far more relevant, and have a far more immediate AND lasting influence on our lives. If you want to talk about issues, then let's talk about realistic issues like the Federal budget deficit, the U.S. international trade deficit, and people going bankrupt because their paid-up insurance companies are abandoning them. If we can forge some kind of working compromise on issues such as these, then we might be able to actually accomplish something.

Otherwise, we're just wasting time, effort, and energy.
Pericles
8/15/07
1:22 PM
QUOTE(Artie See @ Aug 15 2007, 12:38 PM) [snapback]313507[/snapback]

My point is, it is futile to use abortion as a defining issue, NO candidate for ANY office below POTUS can ultimately have even the slightest influence on it. Even the president's influence is limited to appointing Supreme Court justices.



Artie,

Bill Clinton vetoed the ban on partial birth abortion that was passed by Congress.

I wonder how many viable babies could have been saved had he signed the bill.

We both know that abortion is the third rail of Democrat politics. Governor Bob Casey, Sr. was a good man and he opposed abortion. Because of his opposition he was barred from speaking at the 1992 Democratic National Convention.




QUOTE(Artie See @ Aug 15 2007, 12:38 PM) [snapback]313507[/snapback]


My point is, it is futile to use abortion as a defining issue,


Murdering innocent babies certainly should be a defining issue for a just society.

For the Godless Chinese Government, abortion is a patriotic expectation. I hope we haven't started down that path. But if we did, wouldn't the first step be to say that abortion is not a defining issue?
usedmeat
8/15/07
1:48 PM
QUOTE
Murdering innocent babies certainly should be a defining issue for a just society.
Unless they are little Iraqi babies?
QUOTE
I wonder how many viable babies could have been saved had he signed the bill.
How many viable babies (newborns for the unwashed) have died in Iraq due to lack of proper care, clean water or nutrition?
QUOTE
And for the ten thousandth time, why didn't you enlist after 9/11?
You have no idea what I've done or didn't do but when I took my pre-induction physical it was at Ft. Indiantown Gap. We had the privelege of riding up there in green Conestoga Transportation busses. So STF, exhaust port. The subject is cowardly republicans cheering on the Iraq war from the sidelines.
Pericles
8/15/07
1:56 PM
QUOTE(usedmeat @ Aug 15 2007, 01:48 PM) [snapback]313545[/snapback]
You have no idea what I've done or didn't do but when I took my pre-induction physical it was at Ft. Indiantown Gap. We had the privelege of riding up there in green Conestoga Transportation busses. So STF, exhaust port. The subject is cowardly republicans cheering on the Iraq war from the sidelines.


And I say the subject is cowardly liberals who allow others to do the dying for them, especially after we were attacked on 9/11.

So tell me what you've done, other than took a bus ride to a physical exam that you may or may not have passed.

You can't seem to shut up about this chicken hawk nonsense.

mam0412
8/15/07
2:13 PM
QUOTE(Pericles @ Aug 15 2007, 01:56 PM) [snapback]313554[/snapback]


And I say the subject is cowardly liberals who allow others to do the dying for them, especially after we were attacked on 9/11.

So tell me what you've done, other than took a bus ride to a physical exam that you may or may not have passed.

You can't seem to shut up about this chicken hawk nonsense.



The issue, Pericles, is chickenhawks declaring war and being so righteous about it. I don't think either Artie or Usedmeat declared war on anybody. And what does abortion have to do with this topic? Having difficulty defending the chickenhawks so you change the subject?

cyberscribbler
8/15/07
2:18 PM
QUOTE(Pericles @ Aug 15 2007, 01:56 PM) [snapback]313554[/snapback]

So tell me what you've done, other than took a bus ride to a physical exam that you may or may not have passed.
So Bigstew gets a pass here because....?
Artie See
8/15/07
2:23 PM
QUOTE(Pericles @ Aug 15 2007, 01:22 PM) [snapback]313527[/snapback]
Murdering innocent babies certainly should be a defining issue for a just society.
I'm not arguing that point. All I'm saying is that debating this one issue at the expense of so many others is an exercise in futility.

If a Presidential campaign makes an issue about abortion, so be it. But there are NO other elected positions in the entire U.S. that can have the least bit of influence on this issue.

Blasting Democrats time and time and time again because SOME of them support abortion only serves to divert attention away from far too many other critical, immediate, and pressing issues. Too many ultra-conservatives have tried to make the point that all Democrats are evil because of this one issue. This is not only wrong, it is a futile attempt at covering up the mistakes and lies of the politicians these same ultra-conservatives happen to support.

The vast majority of both Republicans and Democrats are moderate and reasonable people. To define over one hundred million people on the basis of the actions of a handful only serves to weaken our entire society.
usedmeat
8/15/07
2:44 PM
All Pericles can do is rant and spew.

Because he knows the repubbies are thru.

If Iraq had valid a reason

pubbies wouldn't make the charge of treason.

Pubbies try to divide us all

while seeking love in a men's room stall

That white suff ain't lip glaze

but some guy's mayonnaise.

Pericles
8/15/07
2:54 PM
QUOTE(cyberscribbler @ Aug 15 2007, 02:18 PM) [snapback]313565[/snapback]
So Bigstew gets a pass here because....?


I'm not indicting everyone, just those who constantly talk about chicken hawks, since they are chicken hawks too. I don't recall Bigstew talking about chicken hawks.

My point is simple: We were attacked on 9/11. Most everyone on this board claims that Afghanistan and Al Qaeda were valid targets and we should have focused on them. Therefore, I want to know why these liberals didn't do their duty and join the military to defend us against the terrorists who attacked us in a cause that they said was just. It proves the point that their beliefs are nothing more than lip service, that they have not backed-up their beliefs with action.

I believe it's a fair question and one that deserves an answer. But unless someone tells me that they tried to serve, or couldn't serve for some reason, then they are the ones who should shut up about this chicken hawk business.

BTW, the military is made up primarily of conservative thinking people who vote overwhelmingly Republican. So when we have people like usedmeat declaring all things Republican as bad, then he is indicting the same people he claims to care about, especially people, who unlike many liberals, have demonstrated that they are willing to back up their beliefs with action by fighting and dying.

QUOTE(Artie See @ Aug 15 2007, 02:23 PM) [snapback]313566[/snapback]


Blasting Democrats time and time and time again because SOME of them support abortion only serves to divert attention away from far too many other critical, immediate, and pressing issues.


Artie,

The right to an abortion is a plank in the Democrat platform. You may not agree with that, but it is a fact. I'm not diverting attention from anything. I'm simply stating a fact.
mam0412
8/15/07
2:57 PM
QUOTE(Pericles @ Aug 15 2007, 02:54 PM) [snapback]313576[/snapback]

BTW, the military is made up primarily of conservative thinking people who vote overwhelmingly Republican.


Where are the stats that back that up?

Pericles
8/15/07
3:01 PM
QUOTE(usedmeat @ Aug 15 2007, 02:44 PM) [snapback]313573[/snapback]
All Pericles can do is rant and spew.

Because he knows the repubbies are thru.

If Iraq had valid a reason

pubbies wouldn't make the charge of treason.

Pubbies try to divide us all

while seeking love in a men's room stall

That white suff ain't lip glaze

but some guy's mayonnaise.



And all this time I thought you were pro gay rights.

Why is it that the worst insult that liberals can lodge at conservatives is that they are gay?

Why do other liberals, especially gays, accept this from their party members?

I'm conservative, but I'm not anti-gay, and I would never try to insult someone by insinuating that they are gay. Apparently I have more respect for gays than most liberals.

Is that the best you can do usedmeat? Cheap, insulting, anti-gay poetry?






QUOTE(mam0412 @ Aug 15 2007, 02:57 PM) [snapback]313578[/snapback]


Where are the stats that back that up?



Look em' up if your interested. I know from firsthand experience.

Why did Gore try to supress the absentee ballots in Florida?
mam0412
8/15/07
3:09 PM
QUOTE(Pericles @ Aug 15 2007, 03:01 PM) [snapback]313579[/snapback]


And all this time I thought you were pro gay rights.

Why is it that the worst insult that liberals can lodge at conservatives is that they are gay?

Why do other liberals, especially gays, accept this from their party members?

I'm conservative, but I'm not anti-gay, and I would never try to insult someone by insinuating that they are gay. Apparently I have more respect for gays than most liberals.

Is that the best you can do usedmeat? Cheap, insulting, anti-gay poetry?








Look em' up if your interested. I know from firsthand experience.

Why did Gore try to supress the absentee ballots in Florida?


Pericles, you just continue to twist words. First, the issue is chickenhawks declaring war and being so righteous about it. Artie and Usedmeat haven't declared war on anyone. Second, Usedmeat's clever poem wasn't anti-gay. It only pointed out the hypocracy of some Republicans with their fear of gays while hiding their own gay tendencies. And third, do share where one can look up those bogus statistics about the military voting Republican. Surely you have not met every military person there is, so if it's only on your experience, that should not be the basis for the blanket statement you made.

Pericles
8/15/07
3:12 PM
QUOTE(Artie See @ Aug 15 2007, 02:23 PM) [snapback]313566[/snapback]


The vast majority of both Republicans and Democrats are moderate and reasonable people. To define over one hundred million people on the basis of the actions of a handful only serves to weaken our entire society.


Artie,

This is where we differ. If we cannot stand against the things that we disagree with, then we stand for nothing.

Does saying you're a moderate mean that you are willing to accept the worst in your party?
usedmeat
8/15/07
3:13 PM
QUOTE
Why is it that the worst insult that liberals can lodge at conservatives is that they are gay?
See my strangled cries thread, it's not an insult it's the truth.
QUOTE
Why did Gore try to supress the absentee ballots in Florida?
The law says that absentee ballots have to be postmarked to prove they were in the mail by the deadline. When it looked like Al Gore was going to win Florida droves of late absentee ballots, sans postmarks, started appearing at election offices. But what has this got to do with hypocrital, warmongering republicans?



For the record, Pericles I'm all for gay rights, not for reststop promiscuity no matter what gender is involved.

QUOTE
Does saying you're a moderate mean that you are willing to accept the worst in your party?
George Bush exploding frogs with fire crackers? Jack Abramoff playing both sides of the fence when it comes to reservation gambling? VP dick Cheney shooting a hunting partner in the face then blocking a police investigation until the next day? And what about the fact the neither man was with his wife but two other women?
Pericles
8/15/07
3:15 PM
QUOTE(mam0412 @ Aug 15 2007, 03:09 PM) [snapback]313580[/snapback]


Pericles, you just continue to twist words. First, the issue is chickenhawks declaring war and being so righteous about it. Artie and Usedmeat haven't declared war on anyone. Second, Usedmeat's clever poem wasn't anti-gay. It only pointed out the hypocracy of some Republicans with their fear of gays while hiding their own gay tendencies. And third, do share where one can look up those bogus statistics about the military voting Republican. Surely you have not met every military person there is, so if it's only on your experience, that should not be the basis for the blanket statement you made.



And you'll defend anything, won't you?

No I haven't met every military person, just thousands of them. How many have you met?


QUOTE(usedmeat @ Aug 15 2007, 03:13 PM) [snapback]313583[/snapback]


For the record, Pericles I'm all for gay rights,



Of course you are, you just reserve the right to use it as a slur.


usedmeat
8/15/07
3:20 PM
QUOTE
Of course you are, you just reserve the right to use it as a slur.
Now the truth is a slur?
mam0412
8/15/07
3:22 PM
QUOTE(Pericles @ Aug 15 2007, 03:15 PM) [snapback]313586[/snapback]


And you'll defend anything, won't you?

No I haven't met every military person, just thousands of them. How many have you met?




Of course you are, you just reserve the right to use it as a slur.




Pericles, you are just really off today. No sleep last night?



No, I won't defend anything. Not sure where you get that. Making it up as you go along I suppose as this thread shows you have been all day. I defend what I believe in. And I've met a few military folks. What does that have to do with anything? I could sit here and say the majority of people who work in banking vote Republican based on people I know from the bank I work at, but I know that wouldn't be a fair statement to extrapolate to the entire population of bankers. The point is, you cannot claim to know that most military people vote Republican because voting records are confidential and who knows if they're telling you the truth. They could just want to avoid your twisting their words.

Pericles
8/15/07
3:28 PM
QUOTE(usedmeat @ Aug 15 2007, 03:20 PM) [snapback]313590[/snapback]
Now the truth is a slur?


When I call out liberals for not doing their duty in defense of our country after 9/11, you make up a poem about me giving BJs in a men's room.

Now you talk about truth?


QUOTE(mam0412 @ Aug 15 2007, 03:22 PM) [snapback]313593[/snapback]


Pericles, you are just really off today. No sleep last night?



No, I won't defend anything. Not sure where you get that. Making it up as you go along I suppose as this thread shows you have been all day. I defend what I believe in. And I've met a few military folks. What does that have to do with anything? I could sit here and say the majority of people who work in banking vote Republican based on people I know from the bank I work at, but I know that wouldn't be a fair statement to extrapolate to the entire population of bankers. The point is, you cannot claim to know that most military people vote Republican because voting records are confidential and who knows if they're telling you the truth. They could just want to avoid your twisting their words.



Your post is absurd.


QUOTE(mam0412 @ Aug 15 2007, 03:22 PM) [snapback]313593[/snapback]


No, I won't defend anything. Not sure where you get that. Making it up as you go along I suppose as this thread shows you have been all day. I defend what I believe in.


Usedmeat makes an anti gay slur, about someone giving a BJ in a restroom and you call it a funny poem, but you're not defending anything.
mam0412
8/15/07
3:34 PM
QUOTE(Pericles @ Aug 15 2007, 02:54 PM) [snapback]313576[/snapback]

IArtie,

The right to an abortion is a plank in the Democrat platform. You may not agree with that, but it is a fact. I'm not diverting attention from anything. I'm simply stating a fact.


Bringing up the abortion topic on this thread is diverting attention away from the initial topic. Like I asked earlier, are you only changing the subject to abortion because you can't defend the chickenhawks who declared war?



QUOTE(Pericles @ Aug 15 2007, 03:28 PM) [snapback]313594[/snapback]


When I call out liberals for not doing their duty in defense of our country after 9/11, you make up a poem about me giving BJs in a men's room.

Now you talk about truth?




Your post is absurd.




Usedmeat makes an anti gay slur, about someone giving a BJ in a restroom and you call it a funny poem, but you're not defending anything.


Now who's post doesn't make sense? You have twisted 'til it makes no sense. Please Pericles, get some sleep!

cyberscribbler
8/15/07
3:38 PM
QUOTE(Pericles @ Aug 15 2007, 03:28 PM) [snapback]313594[/snapback]
When I call out liberals for not doing their duty in defense of our country after 9/11
Pericles,
forget the poem for a moment, and answer this;

You're basically saying unless you volunteer personally for a closely held belief, you have no right criticizing any aspect of that cause.

So if you're for property tax reform, but you havent' volunteered personally to raise awareness, you cannot criticize the legislation.

If you're opposed to out of control welfare spending, but haven't personally volunteered as a case-worker, you cannot criticize the program.

You alone are setting the guidelines for what can or cannot be said about any issue.

I've seen this "what have you done" point made repeatedly, and would like some clarity on your view.
Thanks.

Pericles
8/15/07
3:38 PM
QUOTE(mam0412 @ Aug 15 2007, 03:34 PM) [snapback]313596[/snapback]


Now who's post doesn't make sense? You have twisted 'til it makes no sense. Please Pericles, get some sleep!



Usedmeat makes an anti gay slur, about someone giving a BJ in a restroom and you call it a funny poem, but you're not defending anything.

mam0412
8/15/07
3:43 PM
QUOTE(Pericles @ Aug 15 2007, 03:38 PM) [snapback]313601[/snapback]


Usedmeat makes an anti gay slur, about someone giving a BJ in a restroom and you call it a funny poem, but you're not defending anything.



Usedmeat did not make an anti gay slur. Get over it.

usedmeat
8/15/07
3:44 PM
QUOTE
Usedmeat makes an anti gay slur, about someone giving a BJ in a restroom and you call it a funny poem, but you're not defending anything.




http://www.tampabays10.com/news/local/arti...s&storyid=60650



QUOTE


Titusville, Florida - An audiotape reveals new details about the arrest of a state lawmaker in the men's room of a public park. Investigators say State Representative Bob Allen(R-Kneepad) offered an undercover officer 20 dollars, if he could perform oral sex on him. The Merritt Island Republican says its all a big misunderstanding. ...




So it was a slur, Pericles?

Pericles
8/15/07
3:49 PM
QUOTE(cyberscribbler @ Aug 15 2007, 03:38 PM) [snapback]313600[/snapback]
Pericles,
forget the poem for a moment, and answer this;

You're basically saying unless you volunteer personally for a closely held belief, you have no right criticizing any aspect of that cause.

So if you're for property tax reform, but you havent' volunteered personally to raise awareness, you cannot criticize the legislation.

If you're opposed to out of control welfare spending, but haven't personally volunteered as a case-worker, you cannot criticize the program.

You alone are setting the guidelines for what can or cannot be said about any issue.

I've seen this "what have you done" point made repeatedly, and would like some clarity on your view.
Thanks.




There are one-sided, irrational zealots who seem to claim that there beliefs reign supreme, and all others (Republicans) are worthless and evil. These are the people that I call out.

The point you make however, about closely held personal beliefs, is one that I feel strongly about because I would assume that it's not a very firm belief unless there is action, not just talk. Yes, that applies to property taxes, welfare reform, etc...

I'm not setting guidelines, but I am pointing out a favorite of some posters, that being hypocrisy.

There are those who talk and there are those who do. Which do you respect more?


QUOTE(mam0412 @ Aug 15 2007, 03:43 PM) [snapback]313602[/snapback]


Usedmeat did not make an anti gay slur. Get over it.



I know. He's a liberal and that would be impossible. Got it.

More hypocrisy.


QUOTE(usedmeat @ Aug 15 2007, 03:44 PM) [snapback]313603[/snapback]


So it was a slur, Pericles?



It was a slur. It was anti gay. And it's obviously a deeply held belief of yours....when you disagree with someone, the best insult is to accuse them of being gay.

You said it. It's done.
mam0412
8/15/07
3:52 PM
Pericles - In your opinion, how is Usedmeat's poem an anti-gay slur? You are just making zippo, zero sense.

QUOTE(Pericles @ Aug 15 2007, 03:49 PM) [snapback]313605[/snapback]



There are one-sided, irrational zealots who seem to claim that there beliefs reign supreme, and all others (Republicans) are worthless and evil. These are the people that I call out.

The point you make however, about closely held personal beliefs, is one that I feel strongly about because I would assume that it's not a very firm belief unless there is action, not just talk. Yes, that applies to property taxes, welfare reform, etc...

I'm not setting guidelines, but I am pointing out a favorite of some posters, that being hypocrisy.

There are those who talk and there are those who do. Which do you respect more?




I know. He's a liberal and that would be impossible. Got it.

More hypocrisy.




It was a slur. It was anti gay. And it's obviously a deeply held belief of yours....when you disagree with someone, the best insult is to accuse them of being gay.

You said it. It's done.


Oh, I see. When something with gay in it is directed at you it's a slur? For the record, Usedmeat did not call you gay.

Pericles
8/15/07
3:56 PM
QUOTE(mam0412 @ Aug 15 2007, 03:52 PM) [snapback]313607[/snapback]
Pericles - In your opinion, how is Usedmeat's poem an anti-gay slur? You are just making zippo, zero sense.


Really. Then you'll refuse to accept any explanation. You should just say that. But for the sake of all that is just, I repeat it for you one more time.

He doesn't like what I have to say, so he posts a poem about me giving BJs in a public rest room. Now I don't know much, but I do know that one would have to be gay to engage in that behavior.

So when usedmeat wants to really insult someone, what does he do....?
usedmeat
8/15/07
3:56 PM
You have no valid rebuttals do you, Pericles?

No matter what you want the military cannot keep the level of presence we have in Iraq beyond next summer because they are worn out.

The invasion was a flawed idea based on lies by the Bush administration that has increased terrorism not abated it.

Your republican party has members that while preaching moral behaviour commit act of lewdness.

mam0412
8/15/07
4:03 PM
QUOTE(Pericles @ Aug 15 2007, 03:56 PM) [snapback]313609[/snapback]


Really. Then you'll refuse to accept any explanation. You should just say that. But for the sake of all that is just, I repeat it for you one more time.

He doesn't like what I have to say, so he posts a poem about me giving BJs in a public rest room. Now I don't know much, but I do know that one would have to be gay to engage in that behavior.

So when usedmeat wants to really insult someone, what does he do....?


You flatter yourself too much. Usedmeat did not call you gay. And clearly, Usedmeat is correct when he says you have no valid rebuttals. You have taken the topic of chickenhawks to include abortion and gays. Now that's twisted.

Pericles
8/15/07
4:04 PM
QUOTE(usedmeat @ Aug 15 2007, 03:56 PM) [snapback]313610[/snapback]
You have no valid rebuttals do you, Pericles?

No matter what you want the military cannot keep the level of presence we have in Iraq beyond next summer because they are worn out.

The invasion was a flawed idea based on lies by the Bush administration that has increased terrorism not abated it.

Your republican party has members that while preaching moral behaviour commit act of lewdness.



You are a one-sided, bigoted zealot. That's a fact. Republicans are evil and Democrats are good. All your sources are from far left websites. You find the worst you can, and if there's an R after the name, you post it as being significant.

I don't see anyone else even coming close to the level of vitriol that you engage in on a daily basis.



usedmeat
8/15/07
4:10 PM
QUOTE
He doesn't like what I have to say, so he posts a poem about me giving BJs in a public rest room. .
Don't flatter yourself, the second half of the poem isn't about you, learn to read.
QUOTE
Now I don't know much, but I do know that one would have to be gay to engage in that behavior
Or have an incredible amount of self loathing? Perhaps that's why republicans do it.
Pericles
8/15/07
4:13 PM
QUOTE(mam0412 @ Aug 15 2007, 04:03 PM) [snapback]313611[/snapback]


You flatter yourself too much. Usedmeat did not call you gay. And clearly, Usedmeat is correct when he says you have no valid rebuttals. You have taken the topic of chickenhawks to include abortion and gays. Now that's twisted.



Thanks for trying to keep me on topic and for helping me deflate my ego. I forgot that the topic was evil Republicans again. It's just that I get so tired of the same topic, that sometimes I try to change it up a bit. But you're right, we really do need to stay on topic, and usedmeat never said I actually gave BJs in a restroom, he just insinuated it, and that's not the same as actually saying it.

It was twisted on my part and I was wrong. Please find it in your heart to forgive me for my transgressions. I'll try to do better in the future.

You are right and I am wrong, and I really do need to get some sleep, so I appreciate the advice on that too.


QUOTE(usedmeat @ Aug 15 2007, 04:10 PM) [snapback]313614[/snapback]
Don't flatter yourself, the second half of the poem isn't about you, learn to read. Or have an incredible amount of self loathing? Perhaps that's why republicans do it.


Gays are self-loathing?
mam0412
8/15/07
4:14 PM
QUOTE(Pericles @ Aug 15 2007, 04:13 PM) [snapback]313615[/snapback]

Thanks for trying to keep me on topic and for helping me deflate my ego. I forgot that the topic was evil Republicans again. It's just that I get so tired of the same topic, that sometimes I try to change it up a bit. But you're right, we really do need to stay on topic, and usedmeat never said I actually gave BJs in a restroom, he just insinuated it, and that's not the same as actually saying it.

It was twisted on my part and I was wrong. Please find it in your heart to forgive me for my transgressions. I'll try to do better in the future.

You are right and I am wrong, and I really do need to get some sleep, so I appreciate the advice on that too.


Mark the date and time!

Pericles
8/15/07
4:15 PM
QUOTE(mam0412 @ Aug 15 2007, 04:03 PM) [snapback]313611[/snapback]


Usedmeat did not call you gay.



I forgot to say that, yes, it was a lovely, funny poem that we should all be proud of.
usedmeat
8/15/07
4:21 PM
QUOTE
I forgot to say that, yes, it was a lovely, funny poem that we should all be proud of.
No it was over the line and I reported myself. I wouldn't want some kid reading it.

But now you have a sense of what we on the left have been putting up with since John F. Kennedy's election and all the anti-Catholic crap. Or how about the competenig Hilary is a Lesbian vs she killed her lover Vince Foster? Or the latest slur, Defeatocrat?



We have a choice in Iraq. Keep going feeding our loved ones into the meat grinder or increasing our persence to pacify the region. Increasing our presence means a draft. It means sacrificing for war production so we have the equipment to do the job. Are republicans really ready to go this far? I think not.



Ludite
8/15/07
4:24 PM
QUOTE(Pericles @ Aug 15 2007, 04:04 PM) [snapback]313613[/snapback]

You are a one-sided, bigoted zealot. That's a fact. Republicans are evil and Democrats are good. All your sources are from far left websites. You find the worst you can, and if there's an R after the name, you post it as being significant.
My ears are burning.

QUOTE(Pericles @ Aug 15 2007, 04:04 PM) [snapback]313613[/snapback]
I don't see anyone else even coming close to the level of vitriol that you engage in on a daily basis.
Ahem! Give credit where it's due.ph34r.gif
bigstew
8/15/07
5:53 PM
QUOTE(cyberscribbler @ Aug 15 2007, 02:18 PM) [snapback]313565[/snapback]
So Bigstew gets a pass here because....?




Haven't you been watching?



I get ridiculed every other thread because I couldn't pass the physical. First I was made out to be a liar. After Debunking that, I still catch grief over my physical ability to serve. Somehow these people think that if you earn a check that your fit to serve. Almost making it sound like they don't believe how exceptional these young men and women are(cause anyone can do it, I guess?).



QUOTE(cyberscribbler @ Aug 15 2007, 03:38 PM) [snapback]313600[/snapback]
Pericles,
forget the poem for a moment, and answer this;

You're basically saying unless you volunteer personally for a closely held belief, you have no right criticizing any aspect of that cause.

So if you're for property tax reform, but you havent' volunteered personally to raise awareness, you cannot criticize the legislation.

If you're opposed to out of control welfare spending, but haven't personally volunteered as a case-worker, you cannot criticize the program.

You alone are setting the guidelines for what can or cannot be said about any issue.

I've seen this "what have you done" point made repeatedly, and would like some clarity on your view.
Thanks.





Like supporting the war effort but not serving? I think you better ask joe and meat the same question, or don't they count because they are libs?

usedmeat
8/15/07
6:09 PM
QUOTE
Like supporting the war effort but not serving? I think you better ask joe and meat the same question, or don't they count because they are libs?
A question better asked of healthy republicans, don't you think, stew?

One thing you didn't mention or perhaps you did, what was your draft classification? Flat feet might exempt you from the draft during normal times but during a national emergency some 4-F and 1-Y get to go too.

If the republicans were really serious about Iraq rather than using it to beat anti-occupation Democrats over the head they would push legislation to restart the draft.

bigstew
8/15/07
6:37 PM
QUOTE(mam0412 @ Aug 15 2007, 03:22 PM) [snapback]313593[/snapback]


Pericles, you are just really off today. No sleep last night?



No, I won't defend anything. Not sure where you get that. Making it up as you go along I suppose as this thread shows you have been all day. I defend what I believe in. And I've met a few military folks. What does that have to do with anything? I could sit here and say the majority of people who work in banking vote Republican based on people I know from the bank I work at, but I know that wouldn't be a fair statement to extrapolate to the entire population of bankers. The point is, you cannot claim to know that most military people vote Republican because voting records are confidential and who knows if they're telling you the truth. They could just want to avoid your twisting their words.





Sorry hon, it is common knowledge.



QUOTE(mam0412 @ Aug 15 2007, 03:52 PM) [snapback]313607[/snapback]
Pericles - In your opinion, how is Usedmeat's poem an anti-gay slur? You are just making zippo, zero sense.



Oh, I see. When something with gay in it is directed at you it's a slur? For the record, Usedmeat did not call you gay.





Really sweetie, meat did mean it as a slight against pericles. He wasn't intending on being extra nice to a conservative poster, ya think?



QUOTE(usedmeat @ Aug 15 2007, 03:56 PM) [snapback]313610[/snapback]
The invasion was a flawed idea based on lies by the Bush administration that has increased terrorism not abated it.





So why did terrorism fester and grow in the 90's and finally spill over to 9/11? Wasn't clinton after terrorism in exactly the opposite way bush is?

usedmeat
8/15/07
7:06 PM
QUOTE
So why did terrorism fester and grow in the 90's and finally spill over to 9/11? Wasn't clinton after terrorism in exactly the opposite way bush is?
No, former president Clinton was sucessful, the perpetrators of the first WTC attack are all serving time.

Funny that Clinton was in office less than a month when the attack occured but you never heard a peep blaming it on Bush the Smarter. Bush the Lesser had all of seven months to formulate an anti-terrorism plan, was briefed in a memo that an attack was in the works and still blew it. So what did the loyal republicans do? Blame it on Clinton.

Stu, here's the deal, when you, Pericles and tnt argue your points you have the above handicap. Why do you think Justplainjoe types Bwahahaha so often?

Artie See
8/15/07
7:18 PM
QUOTE(Pericles @ Aug 15 2007, 03:12 PM) [snapback]313581[/snapback]
Does saying you're a moderate mean that you are willing to accept the worst in your party?
I'm not in a position to change it. That doesn't mean I'm willing to ACCEPT it, it just means I'm powerless to do anything about it.

Let me give you an example: Lancaster mayor Rick Gray flip-flopped on the taxpayer-financed hotel and convention center project in March of 2005, when his campaign had barely got started. During his campaign, he repeatedly gave us assurances - including to me personally - that he would carefully look at the project. Yet less than 24 hours after his inauguration, he publicly attacked a number of project opponents, including me. At best, we were deceived; at worst, we were lied to.

Rick Gray has come up with other inappropriate proposals, like the so-called "streetcar" system that would result in tax increases, possibly even higher than the taxpayer-financed hotel and convention center project will inevitably cause.

At the same time, Rick Gray has done more for Lancaster City than ANY mayor since Dick Scott. He's eliminated and/or combined positions, centralized numerous functions to save money, and undertaken the first comprehensive study of both the City's finances and the City's assets EVER. He has even hired two desperately needed firemen. He's doing everything possible to get taxpayers the most for their dollars, while working hard to improve what he calls "customer service".

Rick Gray had plenty of opportunities to reduce the risk to Lancaster City taxpayers presented by the hotel and convention center project, but refused every time. Yet Lancaster City government is now being run more efficiently than at any time within anyone's memory. Should I be condemning Rick Gray for one or two issues, while ignoring all of the good things he is doing? Should I bad-mouth Rick Gray at every opportunity, or support what he is doing RIGHT?

The situation is almost exactly the same with the Democratic party. Should I register as an independent because I don't completely agree with either the Republicans or the Democrats, which means I won't be able to vote in ANY primaries? Should I throw a temper tantrum, and condemn everyone who identifies with both political parties? Or should I work within the system, and try to work WITH others (instead of AGAINST them) to make things better?

I have chosen the latter. Just because I identify myself as a Democrat, that doesn't mean I have to accept everything they preach. Nor do I expect you to accept everything that your favorite party preaches, either.
bigstew
8/15/07
9:49 PM
QUOTE
Why do you think Justplainjoe types Bwahahaha so often?

tourettes?

QUOTE(usedmeat @ Aug 15 2007, 07:06 PM) [snapback]313657[/snapback]
No, former president Clinton was sucessful, the perpetrators of the first WTC attack are all serving time.

Funny that Clinton was in office less than a month when the attack occured but you never heard a peep blaming it on Bush the Smarter. Bush the Lesser had all of seven months to formulate an anti-terrorism plan, was briefed in a memo that an attack was in the works and still blew it. So what did the loyal republicans do? Blame it on Clinton.

Stu, here's the deal, when you, Pericles and tnt argue your points you have the above handicap. Why do you think Justplainjoe types Bwahahaha so often?



My point was that 8 years of no war didn't make us safer.

Artie See
8/16/07
6:37 AM
QUOTE(bigstew @ Aug 15 2007, 09:49 PM) [snapback]313684[/snapback]
My point was that 8 years of no war didn't make us safer.
True. And four years of war has made us all far less safe. The invasion and occupation of Iraq has resulted in many people hating the U.S. who did not hate the U.S. before, and inspired far too many to become terrorists who would not have considered becoming terrorists before the U.S. invasion and occupation of Iraq.
justplainjoe
8/16/07
6:56 AM
QUOTE(bigstew @ Aug 15 2007, 05:53 PM) [snapback]313639[/snapback]



Like supporting the war effort but not serving? I think you better ask joe and meat the same question, or don't they count because they are libs?



i don't support the horrible war. i support the troops and want them to come home and not be killed in iraq by insurgents or suicide.

johnq
8/16/07
7:22 AM
QUOTE(Artie See @ Aug 15 2007, 02:23 PM) [snapback]313566[/snapback]

The vast majority of both Republicans and Democrats are moderate and reasonable people. To define over one hundred million people on the basis of the actions of a handful only serves to weaken our entire society.
Tell that to meat.
justplainjoe
8/16/07
7:56 AM
QUOTE(bigstew @ Aug 15 2007, 06:37 PM) [snapback]313649[/snapback]




So why did terrorism fester and grow in the 90's and finally spill over to 9/11? Wasn't clinton after terrorism in exactly the opposite way bush is?



ummmm stew i hate to break it to you but where are the perps from the first wtc attack?

yep clint put them behind bars.

now where are the perps from the second wtc attack?

yep sherrif jr let them escape while he sent the posse in the wrong direction.

case closed.



QUOTE(bigstew @ Aug 15 2007, 09:49 PM) [snapback]313684[/snapback]





My point was that 8 years of no war didn't make us safer.



huh?

johnq
8/16/07
8:13 AM
QUOTE(usedmeat @ Aug 15 2007, 04:21 PM) [snapback]313618[/snapback]
No it was over the line and I reported myself. I wouldn't want some kid reading it.

But now you have a sense of what we on the left have been putting up with since John F. Kennedy's election and all the anti-Catholic crap. Or how about the competenig Hilary is a Lesbian vs she killed her lover Vince Foster? Or the latest slur, Defeatocrat?

So you respond in kind? And help to increase the hate? You could be one who rises above the slurs and hate spewing, but, alas, you choose to roll around in the muck, and, like a child, blame the other side, because, according to you, they started it. You really have shown yourself on this thread.
mam0412
8/16/07
8:21 AM
[quote name='bigstew' date='Aug 15 2007, 06:37 PM' post='313649']
Sorry hon, it is common knowledge.

[\quote]

No Stew, it is not common knowledge. It is propoganda spewed by the Republicans that you just happen to believe. You'll believe anything they tell you. I suspect the voting habits of the military are on par with the voting habits of the rest of the country.


[quote name='bigstew' date='Aug 15 2007, 06:37 PM' post='313649']
Really sweetie, meat did mean it as a slight against pericles. He wasn't intending on being extra nice to a conservative poster, ya think?
[/quote]

No, Usedmeat's poem was meant to anger Pericles, but he was not intent on calling him gay. Just as you continue to try to anger me by calling me "Hon" and "Sweetie".



cyberscribbler
8/16/07
9:58 AM
QUOTE(bigstew @ Aug 15 2007, 05:53 PM) [snapback]313639[/snapback]
Haven't you been watching?

Almost making it sound like they don't believe how exceptional these young men and women are(cause anyone can do it, I guess?).

Like supporting the war effort but not serving? I think you better ask joe and meat the same question, or don't they count because they are libs?


We're stuck in this cycle, the conversation always devolves into personal attacks on who did/didn't serve.



Yes, the troops are exceptional and deserve respect and thanks. I don't see anyone insulting them personally as sub-humans animals. Criticism is usually reserved for Bush and company.

usedmeat
8/16/07
10:42 AM
QUOTE
So you respond in kind? And help to increase the hate? You could be one who rises above the slurs and hate spewing, but, alas, you choose to roll around in the muck, and, like a child, blame the other side, because, according to you, they started it. You really have shown yourself on this thread.
JohnG, I said that when I joined this forum. I was here to hand the republicans some of their own medicine. The only difference is I try to back my accusations with cites. If I repeat something I can't back I make note that it's an anecdote. Some of the charges I won't repeat because in my mind they have no crediblity at all.

Rudi G isn't god's gift to mayors and republican operatives solicit gay sex. According to a childhood friend Bush exploded frogs with firecrackers and he never denied it. Those are facts or opinions backed up by facts.

johnq
8/16/07
10:54 AM
QUOTE(usedmeat @ Aug 16 2007, 10:42 AM) [snapback]313796[/snapback]
JohnG, I said that when I joined this forum. I was here to hand the republicans some of their own medicine. The only difference is I try to back my accusations with cites. If I repeat something I can't back I make note that it's an anecdote. Some of the charges I won't repeat because in my mind they have no crediblity at all.

Rudi G isn't god's gift to mayors and republican operatives solicit gay sex. According to a childhood friend Bush exploded frogs with firecrackers and he never denied it. Those are facts or opinions backed up by facts.

And you call other posters names, call Bush and other Republicans names, and now you say it's OK because you believe the Republicans did it first?

One of the main reasons I have stayed away from these national political debates on here is you and your name calling, both of other posters and of politicians. If you want to debate issues and back up your opinions with facts, I'm all for it. But you don't do that. You spew the same vile vitriol you accuse the right of spewing. And that little poem, well.....it really makes you look like a hypocrit.



usedmeat
8/16/07
12:45 PM
Think you're going to get an honest progress report on the surge come September?
Think again, the republican Wurlitzer of Spin has started thanks to the stenographers at the Washington Post:
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/horsesmou...s_fred_hiat.php
QUOTE

... From its lead editorial:

The bombings came as Gen. Petraeus and others claimed to be making progress in their campaign against al-Qaeda in Iraq. The general is expected to elaborate on that progress in a report to Congress in September and to ask for more time for his strategy to work, while acknowledging -- as he also said yesterday -- that the U.S. military presence in Iraq will have to be "a good bit smaller" by next summer.
So perfect. It's hard to overstate the amount of contempt you need to have for your readers in order to pull nonsense like this. A more charitable explanation here is that the people responsible for this editorial are clueless, and missed the big news about the report yesterday. Neither is all that admirable. After all, WaPo's own news pages did get it right, describing the report as "the Bush administration's progress report," adding that it "would not be written by the Army general but would come from the White House, with input from Petraeus, Crocker and other administration officials." Um, exactly. ...



bigstew
8/16/07
1:07 PM
I knew that if the sept. report came back in a negative light, libs would slam bush thinking they have solid credibility backed by the top brass. I also knew that if rumors started floating around about a positive report, the whisper campaign would begin.

QUOTE(Artie See @ Aug 16 2007, 06:37 AM) [snapback]313729[/snapback]
True. And four years of war has made us all far less safe. The invasion and occupation of Iraq has resulted in many people hating the U.S. who did not hate the U.S. before, and inspired far too many to become terrorists who would not have considered becoming terrorists before the U.S. invasion and occupation of Iraq.




Total speculation and you know it. Their is no real way to calculate "safe" from the rest of the world. They were after us before we went to war, and they hit us with more regularity.

bigstew
8/16/07
1:19 PM
QUOTE
No Stew, it is not common knowledge. It is propoganda spewed by the Republicans that you just happen to believe. You'll believe anything they tell you. I suspect the voting habits of the military are on par with the voting habits of the rest of the country.

Sorry babe, but repubs don't call me to give me the latest. I learn this little tidbit each election from the liberal media. Maybe it is not common knowledge some, but it is to people with common sense.

I don't understand why this fact offends you so much. It is common knowledge that members of hollywood and the press vote democrat. That list of groups can also include academia. Some groups have certain voting tendecies, get over it.
justplainjoe
8/16/07
1:30 PM
QUOTE(bigstew @ Aug 16 2007, 01:07 PM) [snapback]313875[/snapback]
I knew that if the sept. report came back in a negative light, libs would slam bush thinking they have solid credibility backed by the top brass. I also knew that if rumors started floating around about a positive report, the whisper campaign would begin.




stew the good general will not be writng the report, the white house will and they have been proven to be liars time and again.

http://thinkprogress.org/2007/08/15/petrae...e-house-report/



you jusr keep making a monkey of yourself defending these clowns who do not respect you at all.

do you really think a prickk like george jr respects you just because you suck up?

if you do you are more naive then even i thought.

mam0412
8/16/07
1:33 PM
QUOTE(bigstew @ Aug 16 2007, 01:19 PM) [snapback]313883[/snapback]

Sorry babe, but repubs don't call me to give me the latest. I learn this little tidbit each election from the liberal media. Maybe it is not common knowledge some, but it is to people with common sense.

I don't understand why this fact offends you so much. It is common knowledge that members of hollywood and the press vote democrat. That list of groups can also include academia. Some groups have certain voting tendecies, get over it.


You'd like it to offend me, but it doesn't. I'm just pointing out that there is no way for you to know for sure. Voting records are confidential. I have only heard Republicans spew this nonsense. They don't know the answer either. No one does. Maybe it's "common knowledge" to people who watch Fox since Fox makes up "news". But those people surely have no common sense. I've got an idea, why don't you take up your stats with my Senator, Jim Webb, a highly decorated vet and former SECNAV. He'll take you out just like he took out Lindsay Graham when Graham tried saying the same thing.

Pericles
8/16/07
2:40 PM
QUOTE(mam0412 @ Aug 16 2007, 01:33 PM) [snapback]313894[/snapback]


You'd like it to offend me, but it doesn't. I'm just pointing out that there is no way for you to know for sure. Voting records are confidential. I have only heard Republicans spew this nonsense. They don't know the answer either. No one does. Maybe it's "common knowledge" to people who watch Fox since Fox makes up "news". But those people surely have no common sense. I've got an idea, why don't you take up your stats with my Senator, Jim Webb, a highly decorated vet and former SECNAV. He'll take you out just like he took out Lindsay Graham when Graham tried saying the same thing.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...-2004Oct11.html

We now have fairly compelling evidence, in the form of a Military Times survey of its readership (primarily career military officers and enlisted personnel), that reports of the demise of Bush's popularity were premature. By an astonishing 72 to 17 percent margin, the active-duty military personnel who took the survey favored Bush over Kerry (Guard and Reserve respondents favored Bush, 73 to 18 percent). Frankly, the margin greatly exceeds anything that I or any other analyst had expected.

Despite an extraordinary effort to woo the military, then, the Democrats still have not overcome their traditional tone-deafness when it comes to civil-military relations.





QUOTE(justplainjoe @ Aug 16 2007, 01:30 PM) [snapback]313893[/snapback]


stew the good general will not be writng the report, the white house will and they have been proven to be liars time and again.

http://thinkprogress.org/2007/08/15/petrae...e-house-report/



Come on Joe, just a little intellectual honesty. Regardless of who writes the report, Patraeus will still be directly testifying to Congress about the actual results.

Patraeus is a standup guy. Unless you believe that he is a patsy for the White House, then you can assume that he'll tell it like it is.
mam0412
8/16/07
3:07 PM
QUOTE(Pericles @ Aug 16 2007, 02:40 PM) [snapback]313911[/snapback]


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...-2004Oct11.html

We now have fairly compelling evidence, in the form of a Military Times survey of its readership (primarily career military officers and enlisted personnel), that reports of the demise of Bush's popularity were premature. By an astonishing 72 to 17 percent margin, the active-duty military personnel who took the survey favored Bush over Kerry (Guard and Reserve respondents favored Bush, 73 to 18 percent). Frankly, the margin greatly exceeds anything that I or any other analyst had expected.

Despite an extraordinary effort to woo the military, then, the Democrats still have not overcome their traditional tone-deafness when it comes to civil-military relations.



How about something a little more current. That is one election vs. a blanket statement of "military people vote overwhelmingly Republican". I would bet anything those stats have changed drastically since this disaster in Iraq has begun. It certainly has changed the way the country will vote. How about stats for votes for Senator, House Reps, State Reps, etc. This tells me squat nor backs up the blanket statement.

Artie See
8/16/07
4:54 PM
QUOTE(bigstew @ Aug 16 2007, 01:07 PM) [snapback]313875[/snapback]
Total speculation and you know it. Their is no real way to calculate "safe" from the rest of the world. They were after us before we went to war, and they hit us with more regularity.
Untrue. There was no organized terrorism in Iraq before the U.S. invasion and occupation, because Saddam Insane saw them as a threat to his absolute control. Now there are terrorist training camps in BOTH Afghanistan and Iraq. This is as much of a fact as any of your "facts".
Artie See
8/16/07
5:49 PM
The title of this thread is "The end of the war". So let's discuss it.

This is not a Republican or Democratic issue. This isn't about speculation or hypothetical discussions. The U.S. has had a sizable occupation force in Iraq for over four years; this is an undeniable fact.

We all know it was the GW Bush administration that chose to invade Iraq. The reasons for this are not important for the purposes of this post.

We all know it is the GW Bush administration that has been administering the war in Iraq since the invasion over four years ago. We all know that the level of violence in Iraq has been steadily increasing ever since then; the massive bombings this week that killed hundreds of Iraqi civilians are proof that this is true.

Why has the GW Bush administration NOT done whatever it takes to end this war? After all, they have had over four years so far to do so.
Revelation
8/16/07
7:50 PM
QUOTE(Artie See @ Aug 16 2007, 05:49 PM) [snapback]313969[/snapback]
We all know it was the GW Bush administration that chose to invade Iraq. The reasons for this are not important for the purposes of this post...


The true reasons for the invasion are incredibly important.

If the sole purpose was to occupy Iraq to control the world's oil supply, then perhaps the "war" will not end until the oil supply runs dry.

johnq
8/16/07
8:27 PM
QUOTE(Artie See @ Aug 16 2007, 05:49 PM) [snapback]313969[/snapback]
The title of this thread is "The end of the war". So let's discuss it.

This is not a Republican or Democratic issue. This isn't about speculation or hypothetical discussions. The U.S. has had a sizable occupation force in Iraq for over four years; this is an undeniable fact.

We all know it was the GW Bush administration that chose to invade Iraq. The reasons for this are not important for the purposes of this post.

We all know it is the GW Bush administration that has been administering the war in Iraq since the invasion over four years ago. We all know that the level of violence in Iraq has been steadily increasing ever since then; the massive bombings this week that killed hundreds of Iraqi civilians are proof that this is true.

Why has the GW Bush administration NOT done whatever it takes to end this war? After all, they have had over four years so far to do so.
When you start every paragraph with a sentence beginning "the GW Bush administration" it's hard to believe you when you say it's not a Republican or Democratic issue. Why hasn't the Democratic Congress done whatever it takes to end the war? They have had almost a year now, and have accomplished nothing along those lines. Why don't they insist on the massive troop build up that you have stated you believe cold end the war? I'm sure Bush would agree to that.
bigstew
8/16/07
8:44 PM
QUOTE(Artie See @ Aug 16 2007, 04:54 PM) [snapback]313961[/snapback]
Untrue. There was no organized terrorism in Iraq before the U.S. invasion and occupation, because Saddam Insane saw them as a threat to his absolute control. Now there are terrorist training camps in BOTH Afghanistan and Iraq. This is as much of a fact as any of your "facts".


False. Nothing indicates we are less safe. Terrorists running around causing murder or mayhem, or a lunatic with scud missiles under his thumb. The place is f-ed up. You cannot measure safe from the rest of the world and you know it. This is a statement lefties love to throw out there because it sounds "all good" for their argument, but there is no way to guage it.

Artie See
8/16/07
9:59 PM
QUOTE(Revelation @ Aug 16 2007, 07:50 PM) [snapback]313982[/snapback]
The true reasons for the invasion are incredibly important.
I agree.

But not for the purposes of my post, or for the discussion I would like to see.

QUOTE(johnq @ Aug 16 2007, 08:27 PM) [snapback]313983[/snapback]
When you start every paragraph with a sentence beginning "the GW Bush administration" it's hard to believe you when you say it's not a Republican or Democratic issue. Why hasn't the Democratic Congress done whatever it takes to end the war? They have had almost a year now, and have accomplished nothing along those lines. Why don't they insist on the massive troop build up that you have stated you believe cold end the war? I'm sure Bush would agree to that.
Neither did the Republican congress do anything to end the war.

But Congress didn't instigate the war. GW Bush and his administration did.

Since the GW Bush administration started the war, then why hasn't the GW Bush administration done anything to end the war? The American people were told this would be a short-term commitment. Yes, I understand things DO happen. But for over four years?
johnq
8/17/07
6:47 AM
QUOTE(Artie See @ Aug 16 2007, 09:59 PM) [snapback]313997[/snapback]
I agree.

But not for the purposes of my post, or for the discussion I would like to see.

Neither did the Republican congress do anything to end the war.

But Congress didn't instigate the war. GW Bush and his administration did.

Since the GW Bush administration started the war, then why hasn't the GW Bush administration done anything to end the war? The American people were told this would be a short-term commitment. Yes, I understand things DO happen. But for over four years?
That's fine. Bush won't end the war because he does not think we have accomplished our goals, as ever changing and unclear as they may be.

Just don't pretend like you are bipartisan.

hahaha
8/17/07
7:13 AM
QUOTE
The American people were told this would be a short-term commitment


"Our war against terror is a contest of will in which perseverance is power"

"The transition from dictatorship to democracy will take time"

"The war on terror is not over, yet it is not endless. We do not know the day of final victory"

all from the President in 2003

QUOTE
ever changing and unclear as they may be


"We will tear down the apparatus of terror and we will help you to build a new Iraq that is prosperous and free. In a free Iraq, there will be no more wars of aggression against your neighbors, no more poison factories, no more executions of dissidents, no more torture chambers and rape rooms. The tyrant will soon be gone."

that also from the President in 2003 before the war began

justplainjoe
8/17/07
7:25 AM
QUOTE(hahaha @ Aug 17 2007, 07:13 AM) [snapback]314053[/snapback]


"Our war against terror is a contest of will in which perseverance is power"

"The transition from dictatorship to democracy will take time"

"The war on terror is not over, yet it is not endless. We do not know the day of final victory"

all from the President in 2003



"We will tear down the apparatus of terror and we will help you to build a new Iraq that is prosperous and free. In a free Iraq, there will be no more wars of aggression against your neighbors, no more poison factories, no more executions of dissidents, no more torture chambers and rape rooms. The tyrant will soon be gone."

that also from the President in 2003 before the war began



but iraq wasn't behind the terror, remember?

Artie See
8/17/07
7:25 AM
QUOTE(johnq @ Aug 17 2007, 06:47 AM) [snapback]314049[/snapback]
Just don't pretend like you are bipartisan.
I never said I was "bipartisan". What I said was:
QUOTE(Artie See @ Aug 16 2007, 05:49 PM) [snapback]313969[/snapback]
This is not a Republican or Democratic issue.
It is there. It is a fact. It has been done. Neither Republicans nor Democrats can deny that the current administration in Washington chose to push for the invasion of Iraq.

QUOTE(johnq @ Aug 17 2007, 06:47 AM) [snapback]314049[/snapback]
Bush won't end the war because he does not think we have accomplished our goals, as ever changing and unclear as they may be.
Agreed. But after four years, it is painfully obvious that not everything is being done that can be done to clean up Iraq. Why not?
hahaha
8/17/07
7:30 AM
QUOTE
but iraq wasn't behind the terror, remember?

We know that AFTER the invasion. Remember?
johnq
8/17/07
7:32 AM
QUOTE(Artie See @ Aug 17 2007, 07:25 AM) [snapback]314058[/snapback]
I never said I was "bipartisan". What I said was:It is there. It is a fact. It has been done. Neither Republicans nor Democrats can deny that the current administration in Washington chose to push for the invasion of Iraq.

Agreed. But after four years, it is painfully obvious that not everything is being done that can be done to clean up Iraq. Why not?
You've said yourself that a massive troop build up would get the job done. What do you think the reaction would be if Bush announced plans to do that? The Democrats have not exactly pushed for doing what it takes to achieve our goals. They voted for the war at the beginning and have made every attempt to hamstring it's success ever since.

The Democratic politicians would rather see the whole thing fail so they can capitalize politically rather than see our country succeed. Divisive, bipartisan politics at it's worst.

hahaha
8/17/07
7:34 AM
You are correct john. Politics is the reason this thing has been dragged out and will continue to be dragged out for quite some time.
Pericles
8/17/07
8:02 AM
QUOTE(Revelation @ Aug 16 2007, 07:50 PM) [snapback]313982[/snapback]


The true reasons for the invasion are incredibly important.

If the sole purpose was to occupy Iraq to control the world's oil supply, then perhaps the "war" will not end until the oil supply runs dry.




Your post is proof that if something is repeated enough times, some people will start to believe it, even if it's not true and makes no sense. Especially so if it fits one's agenda.


Pericles
8/17/07
8:26 AM
QUOTE(bigstew @ Aug 15 2007, 05:53 PM) [snapback]313639[/snapback]


Like supporting the war effort but not serving? I think you better ask joe and meat the same question, or don't they count because they are libs?



I've heard the clarian call loud and clear from the left.

Any future Democrat president will be barred from engaging in future wars unless they are combat veterans.

That means that none of the current Democrat frontrunners will have the moral authority to start a war, or send our troops into combat. To do otherwise means that they are chickenhawks.

And if one of these Democrats does start a war, given the comments on this board, I'm confident that all the liberals will be lining up at the recruiting stations to join up and fight.
Artie See
8/17/07
8:36 AM
QUOTE(johnq @ Aug 17 2007, 07:32 AM) [snapback]314063[/snapback]
You've said yourself that a massive troop build up would get the job done. What do you think the reaction would be if Bush announced plans to do that? The Democrats have not exactly pushed for doing what it takes to achieve our goals. They voted for the war at the beginning and have made every attempt to hamstring it's success ever since.

The Democratic politicians would rather see the whole thing fail so they can capitalize politically rather than see our country succeed. Divisive, bipartisan politics at it's worst.
QUOTE(hahaha @ Aug 17 2007, 07:34 AM) [snapback]314064[/snapback]
You are correct john. Politics is the reason this thing has been dragged out and will continue to be dragged out for quite some time.
Perhaps. But why wasn't something done before the end of 2006, before the Democrats won a majority in Congress?

Most Democrats would support a reasonable well-defined plan, no matter what the pundits might say. The truth is, it has been the total and complete ABSENCE of a plan that has caused some people to call for a premature withdrawal.

I'm not trying to pick at Congressional Republicans. The leadership behind the start of the war was the GW Bush administration, not Congress. Why hasn't the GW Bush administration been the leadership to end the war?
hahaha
8/17/07
8:55 AM
Simple Artie, because the President does not feel the goals have been accomplished. Look at the quote I posted above from 2003. Iraq is not free. If we leave now our standing will only decrease in the world. "Look at the mess they made and then left" will be heard around the world. When have we ever done that in the past? Look at Japan, Germany and many other smaller examples. 4 years is not a long time for these matters.
justplainjoe
8/17/07
10:18 AM
QUOTE(hahaha @ Aug 17 2007, 07:30 AM) [snapback]314061[/snapback]

We know that AFTER the invasion. Remember?

then that would make the quotes by bush cynical.

actually there was no evidence before the invasion, remember?

the fact that bush fired no one who caused him to make the biggest mistake in american history should clue in even the most cluelss.

in fact he gave them promotions.

and he didn't even yell at anyone for making a trillion dollar blunder.

remember?





QUOTE(hahaha @ Aug 17 2007, 07:34 AM) [snapback]314064[/snapback]
You are correct john. Politics is the reason this thing has been dragged out and will continue to be dragged out for quite some time.


it has dragged out because stupid people were calling the shots from the beginning, remember?

QUOTE(hahaha @ Aug 17 2007, 08:55 AM) [snapback]314088[/snapback]
Simple Artie, because the President does not feel the goals have been accomplished. Look at the quote I posted above from 2003. Iraq is not free. If we leave now our standing will only decrease in the world. "Look at the mess they made and then left" will be heard around the world. When have we ever done that in the past? Look at Japan, Germany and many other smaller examples. 4 years is not a long time for these matters.


welll since those goals will never be met how many more americans are supposed to die trying?

we have made things worse and have made us less safe. at what point have too many people died for a goal that is unattainable.

oh wait ..i forgot the goal is an oil deal with cheney's pals.

that's when jr will pull out.

too bad his father didn't.LOL

cyberscribbler
8/17/07
10:32 AM
QUOTE(hahaha @ Aug 17 2007, 08:55 AM) [snapback]314088[/snapback]
Iraq is not free. If we leave now our standing will only decrease in the world. "Look at the mess they made and then left" will be heard around the world. When have we ever done that in the past?

Iran, Argentina, Honduras, Haiti, and most famously Vietnam.
QUOTE
Look at Japan, Germany and many other smaller examples. 4 years is not a long time for these matters.
Japan attacked us, Germany pact with japan, aligned them against us.
Iraq didn't attack us. We attacked them.

did you hear what happened when the killed off the wolves in Yellowstone. The dear starved to death.

Iraq is like yellowstone, they need to develop a natural order on their own.

If they insist on living like bronze age savages, I say 'let em'

Artie See
8/17/07
12:23 PM
QUOTE(hahaha @ Aug 17 2007, 08:55 AM) [snapback]314088[/snapback]
Simple Artie, because the President does not feel the goals have been accomplished. Look at the quote I posted above from 2003. Iraq is not free. If we leave now our standing will only decrease in the world. "Look at the mess they made and then left" will be heard around the world. When have we ever done that in the past? Look at Japan, Germany and many other smaller examples. 4 years is not a long time for these matters.
Thanks for the straightforward reply.
usedmeat
8/17/07
11:15 PM
So the grown ups will have to clean up Bush's and his republican chums' mess in Iraq.
hahaha
8/18/07
3:02 AM
When are they going to start? We've been waiting for 8 months. I thought they had a plan to fix this from day one. That seems to be what they implied at election time. Hmmmm.......
BuffaloBill
8/18/07
5:55 AM
QUOTE(hahaha @ Aug 18 2007, 03:02 AM) [snapback]314288[/snapback]
That seems to be what they implied




hmmmm.... well that's as clear as mud, looks like, as with other topics, your perception and interpretation is a bit skewed huh.gif

hahaha
8/18/07
6:42 AM
Won't be the first or the last time the 3rd shift was called skewed. HaHaHa
usedmeat
8/18/07
8:27 AM
QUOTE
When are they going to start? We've been waiting for 8 months. I thought they had a plan to fix this from day one. That seems to be what they implied at election time. Hmmmm.......
Unfortunately there weren't enough Democrats elected in the Senate to over come republican stalling tactics.
hahaha
8/18/07
8:32 AM
Thank you for the excuse of the day. Funny how all types of things were blamed on the Republican controlled Congress. How did they manage to approve things? Just lucky I guess.

It appears the end of the war will not happen at least until 2009, after the next elected group takes office.

usedmeat
8/18/07
8:48 AM
QUOTE
Funny how all types of things were blamed on the republican controlled Congress. How did they manage to approve things? Just lucky I guess.
They got their presidential knee pads and rubberstamped anything Busjh wanted.
usedmeat
8/18/07
9:12 AM
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/8/18/54814/0665




I Earned My Purple Heart This Week
<H3 class=byline>by Soldier Boy </H3><H4 class=date>Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 02:48:14 AM PDT</H4> Among other jobs, I am the Battalion Interpreter manager, which means I spend part of my day talking to our Iraqi interpreters, arranging who goes on what missions, who lives in what room, and who gets a few days off to move his family to a new neighborhood to avoid the death threats they've been getting. So as a part of that, I sat around sipping thick, sweet Iraqi tea while 'Smith' and 'Mike' smoked on a hookah, settling who got assigned to the mortars and who went to the scouts. At 2125, I said goodnight, as I had to reach the PX before it closed at 2200.
All of which put me in the middle of an intersection when the alarm sounded, giving me maybe three seconds to reach shelter before the 107mm rocket hit the T-wall 20m to my right.
I hadn't quite made it to cover. The blast threw concrete chips and dust all over me, and gave me a grade I concussion.

More inside.
I couldn't hear very well, and wasn't sure I'd escaped more. My head rang, but I got my flashlight off of my belt and ran into the dust cloud looking for wounded, two medics right behind me. I helped a staggering sergeant take off his rifle while the medics worked on the bloody puncture on his back. When I finally made the Battalion Aid Station 5 hours later, the medics told me that I had a concussion, and asked if I wanted to be put on quarters. I said I had too much work to do. My interpreters told me the next day I should thank God and call my wife. My sergeant told me I was now in for a Purple Heart, or a 'Iraqi Marksmanship Badge' as he put it.

Working with the interpreters has been like herding cats, but fascinating. My closest link to the people of a country I have spent a year and a half in so far, but never really visited. Some are sketchy, guys here to possibly spy on us for the ones shooting at us. Some pass info out of fear. Some just want a relatively well-paying job in a country with 40% unemployment in the good parts. And some are amazing products of an education system and culture that has only recently been smashed. 'Mo', a recent hire, has such good, nearly accentless English you'd be hard pressed to tell he wasn't American-born. 'Wiseman' and 'Mike' are both desperately waiting to turn girlfriends into wives. 'Wiseman' has been burning to ask her for months, but worries about how they can get married when his job keeps him here most of each month, and how they can live in Iraq when it is like this. 'Mike's' girlfriend is of the wrong sect, and already promised in an arranged marriage to another man. 'Rich' asked my opinion of all the huge Shi'a religious marches we see regularly around here, thousands of followers of Ali marching along whipping and slashing themselves, carrying posters of venerated Imams. He seemed glad when I agreed with him that it was all a man-made-up display, not a divinely ordained commandment being fulfilled.



They're real people. They tell me things about the city and Iraqi life now that are by turn interesting and horrifying. 'Rydar' needs the time off to move his family. He's far from the only one with stories like that. All of them, to a man, wish for the day the war is gone.

But as I said to one of my joes when we were discussing GEN Petraeus's report next month, what are we supposed to do when all the options are bad? PM Maliki just put together a coalition government that excludes the Sunnis altogether. The surge has brought moderate increases in security to some parts of Baghdad, but not others, and hardly to the country at large, so staying the course does not hold much promise. Pull out at full speed? And the mess we've left will only crumble further, leading to a independent Kurdistan that will immediately face war with a Turkey that cannot accept its existence, and a Iranian client-state in the south. Increase out commitment? With what extra Army we've been saving? All we've got left at this point is trying to find the 'least-bad disaster' we can.

And I and my comrades are going to have to do the pushing for it no matter how it falls out. And my interpreters will have to live in it, for as long as they can; we had another interpreter a month ago, 'Khalid'. He was a nice older guy, a major in the Iran-Iraq war, which he fought in from beginning to end. His English was very good, and he gave me an extra sheet of paper when he saw me writing a letter to my wife on the hood of a HMMWV as we waited for a night mission to start. He went home on leave for a few days and was killed in his home by insurgents for the crime of working with the Americans. Someone in his neighborhood had found out. They did some pretty nasty things to him before they finally shot him.

They all want the war to end. They fear the power the militias have gained , and what the results will be for their country in the long run. I honestly want to help them. But when they ask me what will happen, and what we will do, all any of us can say is 'Inshallah'.

Soldier Boy, from FOB Rustamiyah, Baghdad.

johnq
8/18/07
9:22 AM
QUOTE(usedmeat @ Aug 18 2007, 08:27 AM) [snapback]314310[/snapback]
Unfortunately there weren't enough Democrats elected in the Senate to over come republican stalling tactics.
Another excuse. You couldn't elect enough to gain a voting majority, and those you did elect are not effective enough to accomplish their goals. It's OK, though, you can just continue to blame Bush.

Maybe if people like you would get off the internet and out into the real world, you could affect the type of change you want to see happen. As it is, I can't see that you really accomplish anything. Although, I often think if you can put a smile on someone's face, then you have done something good, and you do make me laugh on a regular basis.

usedmeat
8/18/07
9:29 AM
QUOTE
You couldn't elect enough to gain a voting majority, ...
We did well enough considering we had to battle republican lies about our candidates and the print and broadcast media's constant shilling for the White House.

QUOTE
... and those you did elect are not effective enough to accomplish their goals.
It takes 60 votes in the Senate to over a veto.

johnq
8/18/07
9:46 AM
QUOTE(usedmeat @ Aug 18 2007, 09:29 AM) [snapback]314331[/snapback]
We did well enough considering we had to battle republican lies about our candidates and the print and broadcast media's constant shilling for the White House.

It takes 60 votes in the Senate to over a veto.

As I said, blame republicans for your shortcomings. At least I'm comforted knowing that you will never be effective. Until the Democrats look at themselves and what mistakes they are making, they will never succeed. In politics as in life, continually blaming someone else for your shortcomings is the road to ruin. You've cheered me up yet again. smile.gif
hahaha
8/18/07
9:51 AM
Isn't it amazing. All the stuff he complains about Republicans and Bush, he does his very self only for the Democrats. Not sure what is worse, thinking that he is correct or being so blind to see his own hypocrisy. Either way, john is correct that these loons give us some great laughs.
usedmeat
8/18/07
10:07 AM
QUOTE
All the stuff he complains about Republicans and Bush, he does his very self only for the Democrats.
Yeah, right!

I told lies about Iraq's WMDs and intention to use them. I mentioned 911 and Iraq in the same sentence repeatedly until most Americans conflated the two and though it was Saddam that attacked us. I ignored warnings that something was up to stay on my ranch playing at cowboy in August 2001. I appointed a worhtless political hack to head FEMA with the result of pople needlessly dying in NewOrelans. I'm the one that authorized kidnapping and torture of people suspected of not liking America. I shoved firecrackers down the throats of frogs then giggled insanely as the exploded. Yeah, I'm Bush jr.

johnq
8/18/07
1:00 PM
QUOTE(hahaha @ Aug 18 2007, 09:51 AM) [snapback]314334[/snapback]
Isn't it amazing. All the stuff he complains about Republicans and Bush, he does his very self only for the Democrats. Not sure what is worse, thinking that he is correct or being so blind to see his own hypocrisy. Either way, john is correct that these loons give us some great laughs.
And it's good he comes on here with his nonsense. Just think, if he were out in the real world, he might get hurt. I hope he has a good helmet.
hahaha
8/18/07
2:33 PM
Scary part is that he lives in the real world. Avoid the north-western section of the county. Sure his co-workers also enjoy a good laugh!
usedmeat
8/19/07
10:13 PM
QUOTE
Scary part is that he lives in the real world. Avoid the north-western section of the county. Sure his co-workers also enjoy a good laugh!
As opposed to you? Your icon is at what, 30%?
bigstew
8/20/07
11:50 PM
QUOTE(usedmeat @ Aug 19 2007, 10:13 PM) [snapback]314579[/snapback]
As opposed to you? Your icon is at what, 30%?




Yours are all in the teens. tongue.gif

usedmeat
8/22/07
11:10 AM
QUOTE
Yours are all in the teens. tongue.gif
Read the detailed poll results. The congress gets low marks from Democrat respondents upset with the fact that Reid and Pelosi didn't do enough to curb the Madman on the Potomac.
hahaha
8/22/07
12:08 PM
More excuses.

Lather. Rinse. Repeat.

Believe.
johnq
8/22/07
1:35 PM
QUOTE(usedmeat @ Aug 22 2007, 11:10 AM) [snapback]315308[/snapback]
Read the detailed poll results. The congress gets low marks from Democrat respondents upset with the fact that Reid and Pelosi didn't do enough to curb the Madman on the Potomac.
Which is what they said they would do. Their low marks are well earned, as are Bush's.
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