Are Christians more moral?

May 31st, 2007 6:20 pm · 31 comments

This one may wind up in the print version at some point. I did a speaking gig out at Lancaster Christian School last week, which might not be as strange as it sounds; it’s actually the second year I’ve been out there, one of the teacher reads the strange things I write in the newspaper, agrees with some, disagrees with most, but says it makes him think. Which is about the best praise I could ever get.

In any event, he brought me out to provide a bit of a different perspective for the kids, which I did. The group of 11th and 12th graders was extraordinarily sharp, and had some pointed questions. Some of them disagreed with me pretty strongly on things like the Iraq war, abortion, stem cell research (we hit all the high points). Others seemed to come from pews on the left side of the aisle.

But some of the most curious questions, posed to two girls, had to do with how I - a professed agnostic who has been almost entirely unchurched - can claim any source of moral grounding. If I don’t read the Bible, if I don’t take my morality from the Bible - can I be moral?

Initially, I think I sort of resented the question. But the more we talked about it, the more I thought about it, the more I realized that it was an honest query, not an accusatory one. These are kids who - by their presence in the Christian school - have been brought up steeped in faith, to whatever degree. And for Christians, the Bible is necessarily the fount of a moral worldview. I commented here a few weeks ago on something Jerry Falwell once said, that medical research in this country needs to pass a three-part test: Is it ethically correct? Is it Biblically correct? Is it morally correct? And I opined that as for one and three, yes; but I do not see where this country’s medical research, or anything else, needs to be “Biblically correct.”

But for these kids - a few of them, anyway - you can’t separate the three. If it’s ethically correct then it’s Biblically correct; if it’s Biblically correct it’s necessarily morally correct. And vice versa. And if the Bible is the fount of morality and ethics, how can I - how can anyone - who doesn’t explicitly embrace its tenets claim to act morally or ethically?

I started in on a rant about the things we teach our children, the things I was taught and you probably were as well - be kind to others. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. The religious origin of these sentiments notwithstanding, they are the things I believe and have tried to impress upon my son. At the same time - and my kids are too young to go here, though I’m sure we someday will - I do not consider a single fertilized cell to be the moral equivalent of an actual human being. I do not consider the morning-after pill to be tantamount to a third-trimester abortion.

And I do think for some people it’s all part of the same package; you’re not ordering a la carte. You get the main dish and you get what comes with it, or you go to another restaurant altogether.

In restrospect, it strikes me that I might have challenged the kids more by flipping this question on its head. Some of them may think that the likes of unchurched me may be incapable of living a moral life as they understand the term. But even with their grounding in the Bible - do they, do Christians on average, live a more “moral” life than the unchurched?

A new book suggests the answer is, not necessarily.

to be fair, Mark Regnerus’s Forbidden Fruit: Sex & Religion in the Lives of American Teenagers apparently does suggest that the stronger your faith, the greater your religiousity, the better the chance you can resist temptation.

But of that group of kids I spoke with last week - are they ultimately less likely to, say, get divorced than “secular” kids? If I go to the average conservative evangelical megachurch in Lancaster County, am I going to find a smaller percentage of people who have been divorced - people who have had a child out of wedlock - than I would if I went to Park City?

That’s impossible to quantify, and perhaps a lot of people in the congregation at one time might have engaged in “immoral” behavior that they try to resist now. Good for them.

But the point is that the general assumption, and I tend to think Christians make it more than others, is that Christians ultimately make more moral choices in life specifically because they have this grounding in the Bible. That if conservative evangelical Christians were to go off and found their own country, that divorce, infidelity would be unknown, or less known, than it is here and now; that crimes of passion, such as murder, would be far less of an issue.

Would it? We can go to areas of this country that might qualify as that type of country, and we get back to Rosin’s piece in Slate:

Evangelical teens are actually more likely to have lost their virginity than either mainline Protestants or Catholics. They tend to lose their virginity at a slightly younger age—16.3, compared with 16.7 for the other two faiths. And they are much more likely to have had three or more sexual partners by age 17: Regnerus reports that 13.7 percent of evangelicals have, compared with 8.9 percent for mainline Protestants.

How is this possible? Rosin explains that it’s because the “born again” demographic ”includes more teenagers of a lower socioeconomic class, who are more likely to have had sex at a younger age. It also includes African-American Protestant teenagers, who are vastly more likely to be sexually active.”

So is Christianity - is the Bible - the antidote?

How about, it could be. But I sometimes think Christians need to understand that just because they are steeped in it does not necessarily mean that the outcome - the ultimate behavior of Christians - will be “better” than those of us who have been unchurched.

I certainly couldn’t and wouldn’t claim to be any sort of saint, but I do indeed have a fairly well-developed sense of what I consider moral, the things I will teach my kids. That ultimately will include the Bible - but also viewpoints that differ considerably from those who live their lives in strict accordance with what they read there.

I respect their choice. I suspect they want to believe that this choice makes them morally superior to those of us who haven’t made it. I hope they’re cognizant enough to see that this isn’t always the case.

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  31 comments  Tags: Religious conservatism · Religion

There are currently 31 comments on this blog post
View Topic | Comment on this blog
BuffaloBill
5/31/07
6:32 PM
inspiration?
justplainjoe
5/31/07
6:53 PM
sounds like mssr. smart is undersaved.LOL
BAG-17
5/31/07
7:59 PM
Based on strong likelihood or firm conviction, rather than on the actual evidence:

Thought this definition fit the question.
harv1
5/31/07
10:20 PM
If scientists are on the right track, morality may be hardwired, variable among individuals depending on their prenatal care, impaired by brain injury, and a physiological rather than spiritual component.

People who self-identify as Christian vary in levels of morality and can vary on their definitions of morality just like every other member of every other religion or non-religion as the case may be. And that may be a result of how their brain works rather than their religious preference or non-preference.
Magnus
5/31/07
11:25 PM
Gil, you're horrible; you made the kids at LCS think for themselves.

sarcasm.gif

This is why I won't send my children to LCS, when they're schooling age. I'm Christian; hopefully my children choose to be so as well. Does that inherently instill in me (or my children) a moral superiority over those who are not Christian?

NOPE.

I'm still a sinner; only difference is my final destination.
justplainjoe
6/1/07
5:59 AM
QUOTE(Magnus @ May 31 2007, 11:25 PM) [snapback]293056[/snapback]

I'm still a sinner;


go and sin no more, my son.

Magnus
6/1/07
7:28 AM
QUOTE(justplainjoe @ Jun 1 2007, 05:59 AM) [snapback]293086[/snapback]
go and sin no more, my son.

Lots of luck there, sunshine.

sad.gif
justplainjoe
6/1/07
8:07 AM
QUOTE(Magnus @ Jun 1 2007, 07:28 AM) [snapback]293092[/snapback]

Lots of luck there, sunshine.

sad.gif


you can do it my son."lord i believe. help thou mine unbelief".LOL

Magnus
6/1/07
9:42 AM
QUOTE(justplainjoe @ Jun 1 2007, 08:07 AM) [snapback]293098[/snapback]
you can do it my son."lord i believe. help thou mine unbelief".LOL

Faith as a mustard seed doesn't gain me perfection.

That's both the "rub" and the joy of it all.
BAG-17
6/1/07
1:53 PM
QUOTE(justplainjoe @ Jun 1 2007, 05:59 AM) [snapback]293086[/snapback]

go and sin no more, my son.


I think I'll pass. They crucified the perfect Son of God.
kelula
6/1/07
2:02 PM
QUOTE(Lancaster Online @ May 31 2007, 06:25 PM) [snapback]293001[/snapback]


Post your thoughts and comments about this blog post.




5 words: catholic priests and altar boys

Pericles
6/1/07
2:53 PM
QUOTE(kelula @ Jun 1 2007, 02:02 PM) [snapback]293229[/snapback]


5 words: catholic priests and altar boys


Gay Catholic priests and young men, many underage. What's your point? Man's sinful nature, man's imperfection, or your superiority because you believe or do not believe..........



dodgecrew
6/1/07
3:35 PM
QUOTE(BAG-17 @ Jun 1 2007, 01:53 PM) [snapback]293226[/snapback]


I think I'll pass. They crucified the perfect Son of God.
I think that you will find that Joe believes that we are not all sinners. Or something like that.........
ace1969
6/1/07
3:41 PM
It seems that topics like this always hit on Friday when I am busiest and non-comunicato (sp) over the weekend. Oh well.

The answer to this question really is rather simple. Call it genetic code, what ever you want. God instilled a moral code in each of us. Weather we adhere to it is our call. I, personally, am not a big Gil fan, but do tend to read him. What struck me in his blog was:



I started in on a rant about the things we teach our children, the things I was taught and you probably were as well - be kind to others. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. The religious origin of these sentiments notwithstanding, they are the things I believe and have tried to impress upon my son. At the same time - and my kids are too young to go here, though I'm sure we someday will - I do not consider a single fertilized cell to be the moral equivalent of an actual human being. I do not consider the morning-after pill to be tantamount to a third-trimester abortion.



Usage of "I" and the negative "do not consider", represents what? It represents a variation from the, perceived status quo. Where the status quo is our "natural moral integrity".

We really do make things way to complicated. If we were to stick with what God intended from the get go things would be so much more simple.

But than, what would we all have to rant over, right.........................

Shawn
6/1/07
4:28 PM
QUOTE(Pericles @ Jun 1 2007, 02:53 PM) [snapback]293244[/snapback]

Gay Catholic priests and young men, many underage. What's your point? Man's sinful nature, man's imperfection, or your superiority because you believe or do not believe..........


I believe the point was that christians are just as moral/ammoral as non-christians. Being a christian has nothing to do with it.

Later...Shawn

caitlinndad
6/1/07
7:15 PM
If you are compairing Christians to catholics then that is where you are confusing your selves ! Christians talk with God , catholics talk about him ! we won't mention all the other things catholic "think" ! mad.gif

so Christians are more moral than____ lol_evil.gif ____?

BAG-17
6/1/07
7:54 PM
QUOTE(caitlinndad @ Jun 1 2007, 07:15 PM) [snapback]293287[/snapback]

If you are compairing Christians to catholics then that is where you are confusing your selves ! Christians talk with God , catholics talk about him ! we won't mention all the other things catholic "think" ! mad.gif

so Christians are more moral than____ lol_evil.gif ____?


[size=3]I can't believe you just wrote that!! sad.gif If those who call themselves christian would stop fighting among themselves, just think how much better an example of Christ we would be.

Sure go ahead and reinforce Gil Smart's view of christians. mad.gif

bigstew
6/1/07
8:12 PM
I believe christians, as individuals, are not morally superior to anyone. Now as a group, as compared to muslims in this day and age, I believe are more moral.
justplainjoe
6/1/07
8:43 PM
QUOTE(dodgecrew @ Jun 1 2007, 03:35 PM) [snapback]293251[/snapback]
I think that you will find that Joe believes that we are not all sinners. Or something like that.........


some people believe in jesus but don't believe him.

when jesus said that we can do the things that he did and even more, i believe him although you apparently do not for some odd reason.

why would you not believe the words of jesus?

was he lying?

kelula
6/1/07
10:27 PM
QUOTE(Pericles @ Jun 1 2007, 02:53 PM) [snapback]293244[/snapback]

Gay Catholic priests and young men, many underage. What's your point? Man's sinful nature, man's imperfection, or your superiority because you believe or do not believe..........





what are you smoking pericles?

BeingReal
6/1/07
11:04 PM
QUOTE(caitlinndad @ Jun 1 2007, 07:15 PM) [snapback]293287[/snapback]
If you are compairing Christians to catholics then that is where you are confusing your selves ! Christians talk with God , catholics talk about him ! we won't mention all the other things catholic "think" ! mad.gif


Caitlindad, I respectfully submit that, as a Christian and a Catholic, I believe your remarks to be in error.

caitlinndad
6/2/07
7:44 AM
Well who would ask who is more moral anyway ?

If you can"t believe I wrote that or you think it was done in error then go tell the pope !

usedmeat
6/2/07
8:02 AM
Caitlinndad is demonstrating the Us and Them mentality common to most if not all Christians. Hitler used it to good effect in Germany to make the elimination of Jews palatible to the German citizens.
QUOTE
Gay Catholic priests and young men, many underage.
Those priests are not gay, they are pedophiles. There is a difference.

But this points out the moral failings of at least on church. When a priest was discoverd molesting children he was moved to a different parish. There was a shortage of priests and rather that close a church the bishops allowed them to prey on a whole new set of unsuspecting victims. Perish the thought that all that Sunday revenue be lost.

The topper to this is that as a Cardinal Pope Joey the Rat is said to have issued an edict that called for the excommunication of the victim and their famlies if they went public with the charge of pedophilia.

The final straw for many of us is when the American Bishops gave us the choice of being an American or a Catholic. We were told if we voted for pro-choice candidates were couldn't recieve the sacraments. I'm sure former members of other denominations have similar stories.

GeezUS
6/2/07
10:07 AM
QUOTE(justplainjoe @ Jun 1 2007, 08:43 PM) [snapback]293300[/snapback]
why would you not believe the words of jesus?

was he lying?

Sometimes he did...
I
I
I
I
I
I
I
V

Lancaster
6/2/07
10:49 AM
QUOTE(usedmeat @ Jun 2 2007, 07:02 AM) [snapback]293373[/snapback]
Caitlinndad is demonstrating the Us and Them mentality common to most if not all Christians. Hitler used it to good effect in Germany to make the elimination of Jews palatible to the German citizens. Those priests are not gay, they are pedophiles. There is a difference.

But this points out the moral failings of at least on church. When a priest was discoverd molesting children he was moved to a different parish. There was a shortage of priests and rather that close a church the bishops allowed them to prey on a whole new set of unsuspecting victims. Perish the thought that all that Sunday revenue be lost.

The topper to this is that as a Cardinal Pope Joey the Rat is said to have issued an edict that called for the excommunication of the victim and their famlies if they went public with the charge of pedophilia.

The final straw for many of us is when the American Bishops gave us the choice of being an American or a Catholic. We were told if we voted for pro-choice candidates were couldn't recieve the sacraments. I'm sure former members of other denominations have similar stories.





If you believe Catholics are Christians.....

BeingReal
6/2/07
12:15 PM
QUOTE(Lancaster @ Jun 2 2007, 10:49 AM) [snapback]293403[/snapback]

If you believe Catholics are Christians.....




I am Christian and I am Catholic. Do I believe all Catholics are Christian? No more than I believe that all Baptists are Christian (ex. Westboro Baptist) or that all Germans are evil because of what the Nazis did. To imply otherwise is rather small-minded and says a lot about the person who expresses such thoughts. Maybe you think you're so close to Jesus that it gives you the right to judge who is Christian and who is not? Me, I'm leaving that up to him and just trying to do the best I can to love my neigbor, as Jesus said and demonstrated with His words and deeds. I am fully aware that I'm not perfect, but the lack of perfection doesn't preclude me from being able to be Christian.

Lancaster
6/2/07
1:53 PM
QUOTE(BeingReal @ Jun 2 2007, 11:15 AM) [snapback]293410[/snapback]




I am Christian and I am Catholic. Do I believe all Catholics are Christian? No more than I believe that all Baptists are Christian (ex. Westboro Baptist) or that all Germans are evil because of what the Nazis did. To imply otherwise is rather small-minded and says a lot about the person who expresses such thoughts. Maybe you think you're so close to Jesus that it gives you the right to judge who is Christian and who is not? Me, I'm leaving that up to him and just trying to do the best I can to love my neigbor, as Jesus said and demonstrated with His words and deeds. I am fully aware that I'm not perfect, but the lack of perfection doesn't preclude me from being able to be Christian.





For the record, I didn't say what I believe..... wink.gif

caitlinndad
6/2/07
2:18 PM
Do you believe that all jews will go to hell ?
ctravel
6/2/07
2:28 PM
QUOTE(BeingReal @ Jun 2 2007, 12:15 PM) [snapback]293410[/snapback]

I am Christian and I am Catholic. Do I believe all Catholics are Christian? No more than I believe that all Baptists are Christian (ex. Westboro Baptist) or that all Germans are evil because of what the Nazis did. To imply otherwise is rather small-minded and says a lot about the person who expresses such thoughts. Maybe you think you're so close to Jesus that it gives you the right to judge who is Christian and who is not? Me, I'm leaving that up to him and just trying to do the best I can to love my neigbor, as Jesus said and demonstrated with His words and deeds. I am fully aware that I'm not perfect, but the lack of perfection doesn't preclude me from being able to be Christian.




Very good post. Thanks BeingReal!

BAG-17
6/2/07
3:46 PM
QUOTE(BeingReal @ Jun 2 2007, 12:15 PM) [snapback]293410[/snapback]

I am Christian and I am Catholic. Do I believe all Catholics are Christian? No more than I believe that all Baptists are Christian (ex. Westboro Baptist) or that all Germans are evil because of what the Nazis did. To imply otherwise is rather small-minded and says a lot about the person who expresses such thoughts. Maybe you think you're so close to Jesus that it gives you the right to judge who is Christian and who is not? Me, I'm leaving that up to him and just trying to do the best I can to love my neigbor, as Jesus said and demonstrated with His words and deeds. I am fully aware that I'm not perfect, but the lack of perfection doesn't preclude me from being able to be Christian.

Thank you for answering in a more tolerant fashion then I could have. Sure glad our Father in heaven is forgiving.

There for a minute I was having flashbacks to when I was younger and no one else in the world was heaven bound but our little closed minded church and family.
So glad I started reading the scriptures myself and learned that many will be greatly surprised on judgement day.

Blessings to you, again, for showing more class than I might have been capable of.
BeingReal
6/2/07
4:48 PM
QUOTE(caitlinndad @ Jun 2 2007, 02:18 PM) [snapback]293431[/snapback]
Do you believe that all jews will go to hell ?


No, I do not.



QUOTE(BAG-17 @ Jun 2 2007, 03:46 PM) [snapback]293437[/snapback]

Thank you for answering in a more tolerant fashion then I could have. Sure glad our Father in heaven is forgiving.

There for a minute I was having flashbacks to when I was younger and no one else in the world was heaven bound but our little closed minded church and family.
So glad I started reading the scriptures myself and learned that many will be greatly surprised on judgement day.

Blessings to you, again, for showing more class than I might have been capable of.


No, thank you, BAG-17. I went through a similar experience as a young adult; this is what showed me that there's what man asserts vs. what Jesus taught and lived. We just need to stay focused on what He said and did while we do the best we can.

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